"But can"t you -- "
"Shhh," Richardson said.
Pizarro said, "I may be a b.a.s.t.a.r.d, but I"m no barbarian, fellow, so curb your tongue. And let"s have no more blasphemy out of you either."
"If I blaspheme, forgive me. It is in innocence. Tell me where I trespa.s.s, and I will not do it again."
"This crazy talk of G.o.ds. Of my being a G.o.d. I"d expect a heathen to talk like that, but not a Greek. But maybe you"re a heathen kind of Greek, and not to be blamed. It"s heathens who see G.o.ds everywhere. Do I look like a G.o.d to you? I am Francisco Pizarro, of Trujillo in Estremadura, the son of the famous soldier Gonzalo Pizarro, colonel of infantry, who served in the wars of Gonzalo de Cordova whom men call the Great Captain. I have fought some wars myself."
"Then you are not a G.o.d but simply a soldier? Good. I too have been a soldier. I am more at ease with soldiers than with G.o.ds, as most people are, I would think."
"A soldier? You?" Pizarro smiled. This shabby ordinary little man, more bedraggled-looking than any self-respecting groom would be, a soldier? "In which wars?"
"The wars of Athens. I fought at Potidaea, where the Corinthians were making trouble, and withholding the tribute that was due us. It was very cold there, and the siege was long and bleak, but we did our duty. I fought again some years later at Delium against the Boeotians. Laches was our general then, but it went badly for us, and we did our best fighting in retreat. And then," Socrates said, "when Brasidas was in Amphipolis, and they sent Cleon to drive him out, I -- "
"Enough," said Pizarro with an impatient wave of his hand. "These wars are unknown to me." A private soldier, a man of the ranks, no doubt. "Well, then this is the place where they send dead soldiers, I suppose."
"Are we dead, then?"
"Long ago. There"s an Alfonso who"s king, and a Pius who"s pope, and you wouldn"t believe their numbers. Pius the Sixteenth, I think the demon said. And the American said also that it is the year 2l30. The last year that I can remember was l539. What about you?"
The one who called himself Socrates shrugged again. "In Athens we use a different reckoning. But let us say, for argument"s sake, that we are dead. I think that is very likely, considering what sort of place this seems to be, and how airy I find my body to be. So we have died, and this is the life after life. I wonder: is this a place where virtuous men are sent, or those who were not virtuous? Or do all men go to the same place after death, whether they were virtuous or not? What would you say?"
"I haven"t figured that out yet," said Pizarro.
"Well, were you virtuous in your life, or not?"
"Did I sin, you mean?"
"Yes, we could use that word."
"Did I sin, he wants to know," said Pizarro, amazed. "He asks, Was I a sinner? Did I live a virtuous life? What business is that of his?"
"Humor me," said Socrates. "For the sake of the argument, if you will, allow me a few small questions -- "
"So it"s starting," Tanner said. "You see? You really did do it! Socrates is drawing him into a dialog!"
Richardson"s eyes were glowing. "He is, yes. How marvelous this is, Harry!"
"Socrates is going to talk rings around him."
"I"m not so sure of that," Richardson said.
"I gave as good as I got," said Pizarro. "If I was injured, I gave injury back. There"s no sin in that. It"s only common sense. A man does what is necessary to survive and to protect his place in the world. Sometimes I might forget a fast day, yes, or use the Lord"s name in vain -- those are sins, I suppose, Fray Vicente was always after me for things like that -- but does that make me a sinner? I did my penances as soon as I could find time for them. It"s a sinful world and I"m no different from anyone else, so why be harsh on me? Eh? G.o.d made me as I am. I"m done in His image. And I have faith in His Son."
"So you are a virtuous man, then?"
"I"m not a sinner, at any rate. As I told you, if ever I sinned I did my contrition, which made it the same as if the sin hadn"t ever happened."
"Indeed," said Socrates. "Then you are a virtuous man and I have come to a good place. But I want to be absolutely sure. Tell me again: is your conscience completely clear?"
"What are you, a confessor?"
"Only an ignorant man seeking understanding. Which you can provide, by taking part with me in the exploration. If I have come to the place of virtuous men, then I must have been virtuous myself when I lived. Ease my mind, therefore, and let me know whether there is anything on your soul that you regret having done."
Pizarro stirred uneasily. "Well," he said, "I killed a king."
"A wicked one? An enemy of your city?"
"No. He was wise and kind."
"Then you have reason for regret indeed. For surely that is a sin, to kill a wise king."
"But he was a heathen."
"A what?"
"He denied G.o.d."
"He denied his own G.o.d?" said Socrates. "Then perhaps it was not so wrong to kill him."
"No. He denied mine. He preferred his own. And so he was a heathen. And all his people were heathens, since they followed his way. That could not be. They were at risk of eternal d.a.m.nation because they followed him. I killed him for the sake of his people"s souls. I killed him out of the love of G.o.d."
"But would you not say that all G.o.ds are the reflection of the one G.o.d?"
Pizarro considered that. "In a way, that"s true, I suppose."
"And is the service of G.o.d not itself G.o.dly?"
"How could it be anything but G.o.dly, Socrates?"
"And you would say that one who serves his G.o.d faithfully according to the teachings of his G.o.d is behaving in a G.o.dly way?"
Frowning, Pizarro said, "Well -- if you look at it that way, yes -- "
"Then I think the king you killed was a G.o.dly man, and by killing him you sinned against G.o.d."
"Wait a minute!"
"But think of it: by serving his G.o.d he must also have served yours, for any servant of a G.o.d is a servant of the true G.o.d who encompa.s.ses all our imagined G.o.ds."
"No," said Pizarro sullenly. "How could he have been a servant of G.o.d? He knew nothing of Jesus. He had no understanding of the Trinity. When the priest offered him the Bible, he threw it to the ground in scorn. He was a heathen, Socrates. And so are you. You don"t know anything of these matters at all, if you think that Atahuallpa was G.o.dly. Or if you think you"re going to get me to think so."
"Indeed I have very little knowledge of anything. But you say he was a wise man, and kind?"
"In his heathen way."
"And a good king to his people?"
"So it seemed. They were a thriving people when I found them."
"Yet he was not G.o.dly."
"I told you. He had never had the sacraments, and in fact he spurned them right up until the moment of his death, when he accepted baptism. Then he came to be G.o.dly. But by then the sentence of death was upon him and it was too late for anything to save him."
"Baptism? Tell me what that is, Pizarro."
"A sacrament."
"And that is?"
"A holy rite. Done with holy water, by a priest. It admits one to Holy Mother Church, and brings forgiveness from sin both original and actual, and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit."
"You must tell me more about these things another time. So you made this good king G.o.dly by this baptism? And then you killed him?"
"Yes."
"But he was G.o.dly when you killed him. Surely, then, to kill him was a sin."
"He had to die, Socrates!"
"And why was that?" asked the Athenian.
"Socrates is closing in for the kill," Tanner said. "Watch this!"
"I"m watching. But there isn"t going to be any kill," said Richardson. "Their basic a.s.sumptions are too far apart."
"You"ll see."
"Will I?"
Pizarro said, "I"ve already told you why he had to die. It was because his people followed him in all things. And so they worshipped the sun, because he said the sun was G.o.d. Their souls would have gone to h.e.l.l if we had allowed them to continue that way."
"But if they followed him in all things," said Socrates, "then surely they would have followed him into baptism, and become G.o.dly, and thus done that which was pleasing to you and to your G.o.d! Is that not so?"
"No," said Pizarro, twisting his fingers in his beard.
"Why do you think that?"
"Because the king agreed to be baptized only after we had sentenced him to death. He was in the way, don"t you see? He was an obstacle to our power! So we had to get rid of him. He would never have led his people to the truth of his own free will. That was why we had to kill him. But we didn"t want to kill his soul as well as his body, so we said to him, Look, Atahuallpa, we"re going to put you to death, but if you let us baptize you we"ll strangle you quickly, and if you don"t we"ll burn you alive and it"ll be very slow. So of course he agreed to be baptized, and we strangled him. What choice was there for anybody? He had to die. He still didn"t believe the true faith, as we all well knew. Inside his head he was as big a heathen as ever. But he died a Christian all the same."
"A what?"
"A Christian! A Christian! One who believes in Jesus Christ the Son of G.o.d!"
"The son of G.o.d," Socrates said, sounding puzzled. "And do Christians believe in G.o.d too, or only his son?"
"What a fool you are!"
"I would not deny that."
"There is G.o.d the Father, and G.o.d the Son, and then there is the Holy Spirit."
"Ah," said Socrates. "And which one did your Atahuallpa believe in, then, when the strangler came for him?"
"None of them."
"And yet he died a Christian? Without believing in any of your three G.o.ds? How is that?"
"Because of the baptism," said Pizarro in rising annoyance. "What does it matter what he believed? The priest sprinkled the water on him! The priest said the words! If the rite is properly performed, the soul is saved regardless of what the man understands or believes! How else could you baptize an infant? An infant understands nothing and believes nothing -- but he becomes a Christian when the water touches him!"
"Much of this is mysterious to me," said Socrates. "But I see that you regard the king you killed as G.o.dly as well as wise, because he was washed by the water your G.o.ds require, and so you killed a good king who now lived in the embrace of your G.o.ds because of the baptism. Which seems wicked to me; and so this cannot be the place where the virtuous are sent after death, so it must be that I too was not virtuous, or else that I have misunderstood everything about this place and why we are in it."
"d.a.m.n you, are you trying to drive me crazy?" Pizarro roared, fumbling at the hilt of his sword. He drew it and waved it around in fury. "If you don"t shut your mouth I"ll cut you in thirds!"
"Uh-oh," Tanner said. "So much for the dialectical method."
Socrates said mildly, "It isn"t my intention to cause you any annoyance, my friend. I"m only trying to learn a few things."
"You are a fool!"
"That is certainly true, as I have already acknowledged several times. Well, if you mean to strike me with your sword, go ahead. But I don"t think it"ll accomplish very much."
"d.a.m.n you," Pizarro muttered. He stared at his sword and shook his head. "No. No, it won"t do any good, will it? It would go through you like air. But you"d just stand there and let me try to cut you down, and not even blink, right? Right?" He shook his head. "And yet you aren"t stupid. You argue like the shrewdest priest I"ve ever known."
"In truth I am stupid," said Socrates. "I know very little at all. But I strive constantly to attain some understanding of the world, or at least to understand something of myself."
Pizarro glared at him. "No," he said. "I won"t buy this false pride of yours. I have a little understanding of people myself, old man. I"m on to your game."
"What game is that, Pizarro?"
"I can see your arrogance. I see that you believe you"re the wisest man in the world, and that it"s your mission to go around educating poor sword-waving fools like me. And you pose as a fool to disarm your adversaries before you humiliate them."