Believe me, my dearest brother, Most affectionately yours, W. W. G.
You will observe that these cursed delays have driven us so near the mark, that it will be impossible for me to hear from you again before the 21st. You will, therefore, send me your full determination on every point, and in every case that you can foresee. n.o.body can feel more than I do the painful necessity of being obliged to act upon my own judgment upon the general contents of your letters, instead of acting up to any specific idea. What increases my difficulty is the whole matter having arisen since I left Ireland, and my consequent ignorance of the language of individuals on every other part of the subject, except the preamble you sent over, to which they were pledged.
Would to G.o.d that they would adhere to that!
Ever yours, W. W. G.
Pray return Lord Camden"s preamble.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 19th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
I received last night your letters of the 15th, and this morning went to Townshend with them. We proceeded together to the Premier"s, who expressed great dissatisfaction at the contents of your despatch. We had a good deal of conversation about it, which ended in Townshend"s proposing that _he_ should on Tuesday move for leave to bring in the Bill, and that in the meantime your opinion might be taken on the preamble proposed by Lord Ashburton. I thought it worth while to fall in with this idea, provided, as I expressed myself, that the motion was made on Tuesday, and in such words as should be pledges to Ireland of satisfaction.
My reason for this, was my wish that you should have an opportunity of seeing the enclosed preamble, which Townshend is to send you formally to-night, and judging upon it. You see it is directly adverse to the principle of recognition; still, as it is so very strong as to the future, and the doubts being capable of being referred to Lord Mansfield"s decision, I cannot help hoping that it may do. On the other hand, it will certainly pa.s.s the two Houses better; because Lord Mansfield, the Chancellor, Lord Loughborough _and Lord Ashburton_, will, in the case of a recognition, protest against the repeal being at all conclusive or satisfactory. This would be strong for us to meet, and therefore I think you may fairly take the new ground; express your adherence to your old opinion, that the Bill does not contradict it, but that it was an object to carry it with as little opposition and to make it as generally satisfactory as possible.
I am to apologize to you in the strongest manner for not adhering to your positive instructions. But in such a case, and at this distance, one must act much on one"s own judgment; and I cannot help thinking that if you had been on the spot, you would have done the same, considering how far they are pledged by Townshend"s motion, and that there will be little _appearance_ of delay.
Jemmy agrees in opinion with me. I write this in great hurry, and need not exhort you to return an answer as early as possible. I have not at all pledged you to approve of Lord Ashburton"s preamble, which, _au contraire_, I have combatted here, but have said: "I am incapable of judging," &c., &c.
Ever yours, W. W. G.
You must not be angry with Townshend for sending Lord Ashburton"s Bill for your consideration, as I have taken that upon myself to him.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 22nd, 1783.
My dear Brother,
I sit down to give you a mere outline of what pa.s.sed to-day.
Townshend said that, in pursuance of the notice given before the holidays, he rose to submit to the House a proposition on the subject of Ireland; that he did not intend to go into the subject, but only to move for leave to bring in a Bill. He then read the motion; disclaimed every idea of impeaching the settlement of last year; stated that Lord Mansfield could not do otherwise; but that this had had the effect of increasing the doubts that had arisen in Ireland; that it was the intention of Government to leave no possibility of cavil upon the exclusive rights of judicature and legislation.
I seconded the motion, and said, That as the motion which was made went only to the bringing in a Bill, it was not my intention to trouble the House with much upon the subject; but that in the situation in which I stood I could not, consistently with those feelings which pressed so strongly upon me, and with my sense of the duty I owed to both kingdoms, refrain from expressing the sincere and heartfelt pleasure I received from seeing the business brought forward by Government in the earliest moment, and the eager and earnest wish of my heart that the Bill to be brought in in consequence of this motion might obtain the end proposed by it, and set those questions for ever at rest which it was hoped that the transaction of the last year had fully and finally quieted; that here I must disavow in the strongest manner all intention of casting any reflection, or of acquiescing in any reflection, which might be cast on the honour and integrity of the transaction of last year as conducted by the Government of this country, and by the gentlemen who treated with Government on the part of Ireland; that those gentlemen had acted as true and sincere friends to their country, and to the harmony of the empire; that the right honourable gentleman who then moved the business in that House had declared at that time, and had repeated the declaration a few days ago, that those gentlemen treated with him upon the expressed and avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction on the part of Great Britain over Ireland; that as such I considered it; that the right honourable gentleman had also stated the reasons which operated, and I thought operated wisely, against the adoption of other ideas which had then occurred; that the dignity and honour of Ireland was too nearly connected with, and too inseparable from, the dignity and honour of Great Britain, to make them desire that Great Britain should humble herself by an acknowledgment that the right which she had so long exercised had been usurped; that, on the other hand, it would have been absurd to have a.s.serted the right at the very moment that it was to be abandoned for ever: such an a.s.sertion could answer no good end, and could only serve to wound the feelings of a nation whom it was intended by that transaction to bind by the strongest ties of affection, as they were already bound by the strongest ties of interest, with Great Britain.
These were the reasons why it had been brought forward in the manner in which it had; and every friend to both countries, or to either, must certainly wish that it had proved satisfactory.
But it could not be concealed that doubts had arisen upon the operation and effect of the transaction, and that if such doubts had prevailed--if from reasons, possibly ill-founded, they had been adopted by many well-intentioned men, and if those doubts had been strengthened by the late decision of the Court of King"s Bench, however necessary that decision might be, from the circ.u.mstance of the cause having been set down for hearing before anything had pa.s.sed in the House on the subject of Ireland, and if that decision induced a necessity--as it certainly did--of pa.s.sing a Bill for preventing any writ of error from being received, it was surely an act of policy and magnanimity in Great Britain, it was consistent with the honour and dignity of the House to set that question for ever at rest by an authentic and solemn avowal of that which was avowed by all the parties to the transaction, and to place upon the records of Parliament a lasting monument of the good faith and justice of Great Britain.
It was with this view that I gave my most hearty consent and support to this motion; with this view that I hoped it would meet, not only with the general support, but, if I might be allowed to hope so much, with the unanimous concurrence of the House; because I wished very much to show to Ireland that it was the unanimous determination of the House to abide by those principles which had been unanimously adopted in the last session, which had at the opening of the present session received His Majesty"s approbation, and had met again with the unanimous approbation of both Houses in their Addresses to the Throne; and because I wished also to demonstrate that nothing which had happened since last year--that no change which had taken place in the Government, either here or in Ireland; no alteration of the circ.u.mstances of this country, either with regard to Ireland or to the rest of the world; and particularly nothing of that which I hoped I, an uninformed man, might be allowed to call the near hope and prospect of peace--had made any difference whatever in those sentiments of justice, of liberality and of affection to Ireland which had actuated and, I trusted, ever would actuate, the conduct of the Parliament of Great Britain.
After this there was a long conversation rather than debate.
Eden said that he did not mean to oppose the motion; but that when he proposed the repeal last year, he had given his opinion that it would be and ought to be satisfactory. In the first opinion he was confirmed by the following paragraph in the Addresses: "Gratified in this, we const:" &c., &c.; that he thought the other was equally evident from the transaction itself, &c.; but that from the moment he found that the contrary idea was taken up by Mr. Walsh"s precision, by Mr. Flood"s prodigious ability, and by the Recorder"s integrity, he knew it would prevail. He then said that there were still matters which required adjustment; and instanced several acts made Irish by Yelverton"s Bill, which would expire in this country in the case of peace, and the re-enacting of which would not prevent their dropping in Ireland; but I own I doubt this on the construction of Yelverton"s Bill.
Fitzpatrick said he did not mean to oppose this Bill; but at the same time he was exceedingly sorry that the motion went beyond the mere case of judicature which called for the interference of Parliament; that it professed to remove jealousies and discontents; that this was impossible; that there would always be found men to start grounds of jealousies, &c.--men whose consequence arose only from ferment; that the body of the country was satisfied; spoke a good deal at different times about the Duke of Portland"s friends and their honourable support.
Lord Beauchamp said, that as far as he understood the intentions of Government, he approved of them--understanding them to go to a complete derilection of the right in terms so as not to be undone again. He entered at large into the arguments against simple repeal; and, in answer to Fitzpatrick, who had dwelt much on the resolution of the Houses of Parliament as speaking the sense of the nation, in contradiction to the Volunteer resolutions, said that he wondered to hear such an argument from him, who took the sense of the people of England in taverns and at clubs, &c., &c.
Fitzpatrick replied to him: went over much the same ground; defended the simple repeal; then retorted upon Lord Beauchamp; and took his pamphlet out of his pocket, and reading his last sentence, that his lips should be closed for ever upon the subject, observed that he, in his turn, was a little surprised, after this, to hear the n.o.ble Lord"s lips opened to run a race with Government, &c., &c.
I then desired to explain, that so far from saying that the Bill was to be grounded on the insufficiency of the repeal, I had said the direct contrary, and had stated a few days ago in the House, my full opinion that the faith of Great Britain had thereby been pledged to Ireland upon the avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction over that kingdom, and that nothing was implied by the present motion which went to impeach that.
Fox then spoke. He went over the ground of simple repeal; defended Grattan and his friends very warmly; and seemed to imply pretty strongly, though he did not quite express it, that you was to abandon--to desert those men of high integrity and honour, whose great abilities were the smallest part of their merit, &c. It is impossible to go over the whole of what he said; but it chiefly turned upon these heads: he said that no Bill would do if there was not confidence; that such a system should be adopted as to ensure this confidence, not to humiliate the Parliament of Great Britain by bringing propositions founded on supposed discontents, &c.; that the judicature was given up, as far as related to appeals, by the repeal of the Declaratory Act; that writs of error were prohibited by the Irish Act; however, a Bill might be necessary to prevent here the exercise of a nugatory jurisdiction; but that if the preamble of that Bill was, as had been stated by Fitzpatrick and Lord Beauchamp, as a case to be approved of, to declare the intention, he did not conceive how it would alter the question at all, for if the repeal was ineffectual, it would not make it less so, &c.
I again got up to desire that it might be understood that I had not said anything which could in any way be construed into an idea of abandoning, of deserting, &c., &c., men of whom I entertained the highest opinion--men in whose integrity I knew Government might confide with safety, and whose abilities were, as he had said, great as they were, the least part of their merit.
Mr. Percival said something about a law to try persons for crimes committed in Ireland in England, and desired we would attend to that, and give it up. I mean to do so. MacDonald asked if it was meant that all idea of legislation and jurisdiction should be given up. Townshend said, undoubtedly.
Pitt then closed the business with great ability. He said that he was happy to find that, although much conversation rather than debate had taken place, much of which he thought superfluous, still, as to the motion and the main object of it, the avowing in direct terms, &c., &c., that had been unanimously agreed to on all sides of the House. He added, in answer to Fox, that he trusted it would be found that the Government was placed, both in England and in Ireland, in the hands of persons who would not less merit the confidence, would adopt measures not less calculated to promote the peace, happiness and prosperity of Ireland, at the same time, with an attention not less scrupulous to the dignity of the English Parliament, than any other man or set of men whatever.
Thus ended this business, without any division or opposition, every man having prefaced his speech with a declaration of his intention not to oppose the motion. I cannot help thinking that, considering all circ.u.mstances, and particularly considering my own very delicate and awkward situation, the whole has not gone off ill. I am impatient to receive your approbation of Dunning"s Bill. You see what Fox would say of a preamble.
You must not think of printing this debate, whatever you may do with my speech; because it would not be common justice to other people, whose speeches I have stated so very loosely and shortly, and it would be known for a Government publication. I think, even for mine, you had better wait till you get the English papers, from which it would naturally be copied in Ireland, and then insert mine instead. Adieu.
Ever yours.
I enclose Mornington"s account to Grattan.
In my reply to Fox I said, that so far from any desertion, &c., &c., of the Duke of Portland"s friends, all that was intended was, in the expressive words of one of those gentlemen: that as it was now necessary that Great Britain should speak again upon the Irish subject, she should speak clearly and openly.
Those are not exactly his words; but they are in his letter to the "Trala Vol." Pray find them; for I think they describe the transaction well.
Rumours of resignations and changes, short as the term of the Administration had been up to this time, were beginning to be bruited abroad. As yet there was nothing certain: Pitt was firm, and Shelburne mysterious as usual; but it could no longer be concealed that the Cabinet, in addition to the dangers which threatened it from without, was suffering in its influence from internal dissensions.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 25th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
The enclosed memorial of Captain Mingay describes so very hard a case, that I could not resist sending it to you; although the answer which I gave to the Lord Advocate, who put it into my hands, was that it must come through the Commander-in-Chief.
Sir Charles Thompson called upon me with the memorandum upon Sir J. Irvine. He had been ordered by the King to make it out for Lord Shelburne, who referred him through me to you. Upon the last paragraph, I observed that the effects were already sold before the balance due to Government was known. He then proposed the expedient of a temporary pension till a Government should fall, with a provision for applying such proportion of the income of the Government as should be thought fit, in discharge of the debt to the public account.
Bulkeley spoke to me yesterday from Lord Northington, about Lady Ligonier. I desired him to advise Lord Northington, as from himself, to write to you about it. If you should then think you can do anything in it, which I cannot help hoping, the obligation will lay upon Lord Northington and not upon Bulkeley.
Lord Clermont called upon me yesterday. He put in his claim to the Order, to which I gave the answer of non-residence. He said that he was always over in the Parliamentary winter, and had a house and establishment both in Dublin and in the country. I promised to write to you upon it, but gave him little encouragement, nor indeed did he press it much. Townshend tells me the King makes no difficulty about the _cordon bleu_, which of course you will magnify as infinitely more honourable, &c., &c.
The Post-Office here have been making a strange jumble, and have drawn up a most extravagant Act, G.o.d knows why, which they sent to Lord Clermont; I enclose it to you, with my answer to him. We shall be devilishly pressed in the House of Commons about our settlement, as the argument of war is at an end; and yet I doubt whether the people here have either leisure or knowledge sufficient even to talk about it yet. The latter I am sure I have not; and even if I had, I should not think it wise to set the head of every Irish projector here and with you, perfectly afloat. In the meantime it will be matter of some difficulty to parry it.
Did I state to you in my account of the debate, Percival"s question about the Act of Henry VIII., under which offences committed in the King"s dominions beyond seas are triable in England? I rather think the answer will be, both to that and to what I think Lord Beauchamp will probably move, namely, a repeal of all English Acts, as far as they affect Ireland; that they fall to the ground themselves, except where confirmed by Irish Acts; but that if they were repealed, a question might arise how far even those would continue in force, according to Yelverton"s Bill.
Ever yours, W. W. G.