MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783, Nine, P.M.
My dear Brother,
I wrote to you this morning an account, which you will receive at the same time with this letter, of a conversation with Lord Bellamont. I little thought, at that time, that I should now have one of so different a nature to detail to you, which I had, just before dinner, with Percy. He said, that although he might be thought officious in coming to speak to me upon a subject, upon which it had not been thought proper to make him any communication, yet he could not help saying that he thought it inconsistent with his duty to you, &c., &c., not to state to me that he had last night procured from the House of Commons a copy of the Bill proposed; and that he was fully convinced that, so far from answering the purpose intended by it, the country would be thrown by it into a much greater flame than ever. I asked him to state his objections; he said they would be best seen by the form which he had drawn up, and would leave with me for my consideration.
I did not detail to him the many objections which occur to me upon his Bill, and particularly that most insuperable difficulty of its a.s.serting what the right now is, in contradiction to the declared opinion of almost every lawyer in this country. But I said, in general terms, that the Bill in question had been drawn up with great consideration; and that it was a matter of infinite delicacy, on account of the great variety of prejudices to be encountered on both sides of the water. He asked if this was the form which had been sent to you, and if you had consulted people there upon it. To this I could not but answer that I understood you had, though you do not say a word to me upon that subject, and it is a question which will most certainly be asked in the House of Commons.
This unexpected difficulty has made me determine to postpone the second reading of the Bill till I have an answer to this letter, unless I should in the meantime receive one from you perfectly approving, and stating the opinions of people in Ireland as agreeing with yours upon it.
It is certainly to be observed, that the whole of this difficulty has arisen from want of communication from Ministry to you. Because, if you had known that they were determined to admit no recognition of the existing right, it would have been well worth considering whether anything short of that would not be worse than as it was before. Instead of that, they receive your resolutions and your Bill, and then pledge themselves, and suffer me to pledge both them and you to _a Bill_; after which, they first say that they will allow of nothing which admits the _original_ right, and when beat from that ground, that they will not have anything a.s.serting the _present_ right. It then only remained, as we were pledged to _a Bill_, to consider whether this was not the best form of a Bill to be drawn on such principles.
Whatever your answer has been to Townshend"s despatch, I hope at least that it has been coolly and temperately expressed, as he told me he meant to represent to you that an advantage had been taken against you from the warmth of your late despatches.
Another advantage which will arise from deferring the second reading will be, that by that time this strange, unsettled situation of things must have taken some form; and I do not believe that this form will be such as you will choose to act under in Ireland. In that case, it certainly will not be worth our while to engage our characters to a measure which the folly of your successor may render pernicious; which must at all events be precarious; and which England will most certainly repent whenever the hour of her insolence shall return. We took the business out of the hands of Lord Beauchamp, because it ought to be conducted by Government; and that will be the best reason for resigning it into other hands whenever we shall cease to stand in that character; which _whenever_ must, I think, arrive in the course of a very few days.
Jemmy is to dine at Lord Shelburne"s on Monday, when he will probably be able to tell you more. I go to Townshend to-morrow, and mean to try what I can get from him.
At least we have the satisfaction to reflect, that if your reign has been short, it has not been dishonourable to you; and that having taken the Government at a most difficult and inauspicious moment, you will quit it with more real and more deserved popularity than the Duke of Portland, notwithstanding the uncommon advantages which threw themselves in his way.
Of myself I say nothing, except that wherever and whatever I am, I shall always consider myself as deriving honour, consequence and happiness from your character and success.
In these sentiments believe me, My dearest brother, Ever most affectionately yours, W. W. G.
I am able to tell you nothing with any certainty as to the state of parties; but I think that neither Lord Shelburne nor Fox are strong enough to keep the Government without a coalition with Lord North"s people, and that the latter are too strong to sell themselves unless they be admitted to form part of the _Government_. Fox"s people no longer deny his negotiating with Lord North.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 8th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
Lord Nugent tells me that when he saw the Primate, he observed to him that, by the list of officers of the Order, there was no mention made of any prelate, although in other respects the Garter was implicitly followed; and he says he thought, by the Primate"s manner, that he himself wanted to be that prelate; as that officer is, you know, superior in rank to the Chancellor of the Order.
If this be the case, I can see no reason why the offer should not be made to him, which might still be done by your writing to say that that office had been omitted, from the impossibility of giving it to any other person but himself, and a doubt how far he might like the trouble; but that you had daily expected him in Ireland, and meant to ask him the question; but the time now drawing near, &c., &c.
Nothing else has pa.s.sed on the subject, except a third application from Lord Clermont, through General Cuninghame, to whom I stated the total impossibility, &c. I expected Lord Bellamont to have asked it to-day; but he did not drop a word upon the subject.
Ever yours, W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Feb. 11th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
Things are drawing near to their crisis. Lord Shelburne"s weakness is every day more apparent. Nothing is clearer than that he cannot stand a week without some addition. The strongest proof of this is what Pitt told me to-day: that it being thought necessary to make some attempt at a junction with Fox, he had seen him to-day, when he asked one question, viz., whether there were any terms on which he would come in. The answer was, None, while Lord Shelburne remained; and so it ended.
Upon this, I think one may observe, that the one must be very desperate, the other very confident, before such a question could be so put and so answered.
I told him I was glad the attempt was made, though I was not at all surprised at the event. He said that he thought they would now be justified in seeking for additional strength elsewhere. I said I thought so too, but that I could not help trusting that this expression did not go to include the idea of bringing back any of the old people _to Cabinet offices_; that I thought the line was clear that it was the duty of every man to do his utmost to keep the Government in such hands as were fit and able to hold it (under which description I could not include any of that set); but that when it was so placed, it was idle to say that support was not to be looked for where it could be had. He said that, without making professions, he could with truth say, that this had always been his idea. And so our conversation ended--at least, this was the only material part of it.
There is no doubt but that they have been making proposals to Jenkinson, and these must have failed before the other offer could be made. On the other hand, I know for certain that negotiations, _through more than one channel_, have been _entame_ between Fox and Lord North. This must be _bien en train_, if one may judge by what I tell you in this letter.
In that case, as well as in that which I put to ----, I take it for granted that I know your line; and whatever the effect of that line must be with respect to my own fortunes, I have infinitely too great a concern for your honour and my own, not to desire and wish it most eagerly. The only thing which pains me is the consideration of Bernard. If the interval should afford you an opportunity for that, I should depart in peace.
Adieu.
Believe me, Most sincerely and affectionately yours, ----
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Feb. 15th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
I have this day received your letter of the 9th, and have the greatest satisfaction at that which you express respecting this long-agitated Bill. Since you wrote that, but before this time, you will have received a letter from me, enclosing a Bill proposed by Percy. I confess his dissent alarmed me a good deal at the time, ignorant as I was whether you might not see it in the same light. I am convinced now that it proceeds only from his resentment at not being consulted previous to its being fixed upon. The second reading stands now for Wednesday; but I doubt whether it can come on, as I understand the call previously fixed for that day is to be insisted upon. Before that time, I shall probably have received your letter, informing me whom you have consulted, as that is very material, particularly with regard to my being able to urge Grattan and Yelverton"s authority against Fox and Fitzpatrick. At all events, however, I mean now to proceed in it on that day if I can, if not as early as possible, and to _bring_ you the account of the third reading in the House of Commons.
All this proceeds upon the idea that nothing of a different nature happens before; which I still think there is every reason to imagine. I cannot learn whether Fox and Lord North have settled their coalition so as to act together on Monday.
Jenkinson is, I believe, secured to us; but at what price, and with what following, I am utterly ignorant; and on that the whole undoubtedly depends. As soon as I know anything, you shall hear it in the most expeditious manner; but I do not give you my conjectures when they are merely such, because I know people at a distance are apt to give them more weight than they deserve, and I should be sorry to mislead you.
The Duke of Rutland is Lord Steward, and it is said he is called to the Cabinet. This, to my mind, argues great weakness indeed.
In the House of Lords, Lord Pembroke moves the Address; in the House of Commons, T. Pitt. This, I think, does not show very great strength. The seconders I know not.
You have several times mentioned the Pension List; and I have as often forgot to tell you, that I inquired in the first instance without speaking to Pitt, and found that, whatever reform is to be made, rests wholly with Lord Shelburne, who appears to act in it on no system, but to add or to take away at his pleasure.
Jackson and Jemmy Grenville remonstrated some days ago at the Treasury against signing any more till they saw that the act was to be complied with.
Upon the subject of the Fisheries, I have had a conversation with Hunter Blair, the member for Edinburgh. There has been a meeting of the Scotch members to support a Bill in Parliament to extend the bounty now given in England for the Scotch coast, to fish caught on the Irish coast, and to give the fishermen a power of landing and drying on the Irish, as on the Scotch coast. They went to Lord Shelburne, who referred them to me. I desired Blair to send me a copy of the memorial, and an abstract of the several British and Irish Acts on the subject.
The Irish are very ill done, as the two most material, in 1764 and 1776, are omitted. I do not find by any Irish Act whether the Irish fishermen have the power of landing and drying; if they have, I should think it _does_ extend to all the King"s subjects; as the Act of 1782, restraining the _bounty_ to Irish ships, does not touch the power of fishing. If they have it not, no English Act now to be made can give it them; but if they have it, we may extend the bounty as we please.
The reason they a.s.sign for wishing it is, that the herrings shift yearly from one part to another of the narrow seas, and that as the Irish have, by an English Act, the privilege of fishing on the Scotch coast, it is but just that the English and Scotch should fish on the Irish when the fish are there, as has been the case these two last years. The consideration presses, as the seamen now to be discharged will, of course, many of them return to Scotland to find employment, and the fishing cannot, as they state, be carried on at all, but by such indulgence as they apply for.
Lord Glandon was with me to-day, to ask whether Coppinger is one of the new Judges, and, in that case, who he should bring in for his borough. He told me that he had sold the other seat to Sir W. Gleadowe. I did not dare ask whether he was engaged for the next Parliament, because it would have given too much of a hint of the dissolution. I therefore only said, that I did not believe the names were fixed for the three Judges.
Lord Bellamont is outrageous about the Order, and has been _with Townshend_ about it; but not with me. I have sent your paper about Irvine to Lord Shelburne, but have had no answer. I enclose you a letter from Lord Clanricarde, with my answer. Lord Nugent has seen him, and says he is beyond measure flattered, and well-disposed towards you.
I shall go to Lord Shelburne on Tuesday or Wednesday, and press him about the peerages, &c., &c. As to applying to Townshend, it is useless; for he has all the disposition in the world, but not a jot more.
I own I think the 18th of March will be rather too soon after the installation, and will look too like a trick, and too much in the style of the St. Bartholemi: and yet, if you wait much longer, you will fall among their cursed a.s.sizes; besides which, new grounds for tests will spring up, whereas there are now none, absolutely none.
Adieu, my dear brother, Believe me, ever most affectionately yours, W. W. G.
I think our distant projects for the Government of Ireland, are something like Horace Walpole"s "b.u.t.terfly and Rose."
Hester is as well as possible.