"Yes, mamma told me."
"Well, when all the sailors who were good for anything were indignant with our captain, this fellow, to curry favour--pah! And to think of his being here! Oh, if he"d a notion I was within twenty miles of him, he"d ferret me out to pay off old grudges. I"d rather anybody had the hundred pounds they think I am worth than that rascal. What a pity poor old Dixon could not be persuaded to give me up, and make a provision for her old age!"
"Oh, Frederick, hush! Don"t talk so."
Mr. Hale came towards them, eager and trembling. He had overheard what they were saying. He took Frederick"s hand in both of his: "My boy, you must go. It is very bad--but I see you must. You have done all you could--you have been a comfort to her."
"Oh, papa, must he go?" said Margaret, pleading against her own conviction of necessity.
"I declare, I"ve a good mind to face it out, and stand my trial. If I could only pick up my evidence! I cannot endure the thought of being in the power of such a blackguard as Leonards. I could almost have enjoyed--in other circ.u.mstances--this stolen visit: it has had all the charm which the French-woman attributed to forbidden pleasures."
"One of the earliest things I can remember," said Margaret, "was your being in some great disgrace, Fred, for stealing apples. We had plenty of our own--trees loaded with them; but some one had told you that stolen fruit tasted sweetest, which you took au pied de la lettre, and off you went a-robbing. You have not changed your feelings much since then."
"Yes--you must go," repeated Mr. Hale, answering Margaret"s question, which she had asked some time ago. His thoughts were fixed on one subject, and it was an effort to him to follow the zig-zag remarks of his children--an effort which ho did not make.
Margaret and Frederick looked at each other. That quick momentary sympathy would be theirs no longer if he went away. So much was understood through eyes that could not be put into words. Both coursed the same thought till it was lost in sadness. Frederick shook it off first: "Do you know, Margaret, I was very nearly giving both Dixon and myself a good fright this afternoon. I was in my bedroom; I had heard a ring at the front door, but I thought the ringer must have done his business and gone away long ago; so I was on the point of making my appearance in the pa.s.sage, when, as I opened my room door, I saw Dixon coming downstairs; and she frowned and kicked me into hiding again. I kept the door open, and heard a message given to some man that was in my father"s study, and that then went away. Who could it have been? Some of the shopmen?"
"Very likely," said Margaret, indifferently. "There was a little quiet man who came up for orders about two o"clock."
"But this was not a little man--a great powerful fellow; and it was past four when he was here."
"It was Mr. Thornton," said Mr. Hale. They were glad to have drawn him into the conversation.
"Mr. Thornton!" said Margaret, a little surprised. "I thought----"
"Well, little one, what did you think?" asked Frederick, as she did not finish her sentence.
"Oh, only," said she, reddening and looking straight at him, "I fancied you meant some one of a different cla.s.s, not a gentleman; somebody come on an errand."
"He looked like some one of that kind," said Frederick, carelessly. "I took him for a shopman, and he turns out a manufacturer."
Margaret was silent. She remembered how at first, before she knew his character, she had spoken and thought of him just as Frederick was doing. It was but a natural impression that was made upon him, and yet she was a little annoyed by it. She was unwilling to speak; she wanted to make Frederick understand what kind of person Mr. Thornton was--but she was tongue-tied.
Mr. Hale went on. "He came to offer any a.s.sistance in his power, I believe. But I could not see him. I told Dixon to ask him if he would like to see you--I think I asked her to find you, and you would go to him. I don"t know what I said."
"He has been a very agreeable acquaintance, has he not?" asked Frederick, throwing the question like a ball for any one to catch who chose.
"A very kind friend," said Margaret, when her father did not answer.
Frederick was silent for a time. At last he spoke: "Margaret, it is painful to think I can never thank those who have shown you kindness. Your acquaintances and mine must be separate. Unless, indeed, I run the chances of a court-martial, or unless you and my father would come to Spain." He threw out this last suggestion as a kind of feeler; and then suddenly made the plunge. "You don"t know how I wish you would. I have a good position--the chance of a better," continued he, reddening like a girl. "That Dolores Barbour that I was telling you of, Margaret--I only wish you knew her; I am sure you would like--no, love is the right word, like is so poor--you would love her, father, if you knew her. She is not eighteen; but if she is in the same mind another year, she is to be my wife. Mr. Barbour won"t let us call it an engagement. But if you would come, you would find friends everywhere, besides Dolores. Think of it, father. Margaret, be on my side."
"No--no more removals for me," said Mr. Hale. "One removal has cost me my wife. No more removals in this life. She will be here; and here will I stay out my appointed time."
"Oh, Frederick," said Margaret, "tell us more about her. I never thought of this; but I am so glad. You will have some one to love and care for you out there. Tell us all about it."
"In the first place, she is a Roman Catholic. That"s the only objection I antic.i.p.ated. But my father"s change of opinion--nay, Margaret, don"t sigh."
Margaret had reason to sigh a little more before the conversation ended. Frederick himself was Roman Catholic in fact, though not in profession as yet. This was, then, the reason why his sympathy in her extreme distress at her father"s leaving the Church had been so faintly expressed in his letters. She had thought it was the carelessness of a sailor; but the truth was, that even then he was himself inclined to give up the form of religion into which he had been baptised, only that his opinions were tending in exactly the opposite direction to those of his father. How much love had to do with this change not even Frederick himself could have told. Margaret gave up talking about this branch of the subject at last; and, returning to the fact of the engagement, she began to consider it in some fresh light: "But for her sake, Fred, you surely will try and clear yourself of the exaggerated charges brought against you, even if the charge of mutiny itself be true. If there were to be a court-martial, and you could find your witnesses, you might, at any rate, show how your disobedience to authority was because that authority was unworthily exercised."
Mr. Hale roused himself up to listen to his son"s answer.
"In the first place, Margaret, who is to hunt up my witnesses? All of them are sailors, drafted off to other ships, except those whose evidence would go for very little, as they took part, or sympathised in the affair. In the next place, allow me to tell you, you don"t know what a court-martial is, and consider it as an a.s.sembly where justice is administered, instead of what it really is--a court where authority weighs nine-tenths in the balance, and evidence forms only the other tenth. In such cases, evidence itself can hardly escape being influenced by the prestige of authority."
"But is it not worth trying, to see how much evidence might be discovered and arrayed on your behalf? At present, all those who knew you formerly, believe you guilty without any shadow of excuse. You have never tried to justify yourself, and we have never known where to seek for proofs of your justification. Now, for Miss Barbour"s sake, make your conduct as clear as you can in the eye of the world. She may not care for it; she has, I am sure, that trust in you that we all have; but you ought not to let her ally herself to one under such a serious charge, without showing the world exactly how it is you stand. You disobeyed authority--that was bad; but to have stood by, without word or act, while the authority was brutally used, would have been infinitely worse. People know what you did; but not the motives that elevate it out of a crime into an heroic protection of the weak. For Dolores" sake, they ought to know."
"But how must I make them know? I am not sufficiently sure of the purity and justice of those who would be my judges, to give myself up to a court-martial, even if I could bring a whole array of truth-speaking witnesses. I can"t send a bellman about, to cry aloud and proclaim in the streets what you are pleased to call my heroism. No one would read a pamphlet of self-justification so long after the deed, even if I put one out."
"Will you consult a lawyer as to your chances of exculpation?" asked Margaret, looking up, and turning very red.
"I must first catch my lawyer, and have a look at him, and see how I like him, before I make him into my confidant. Many a briefless barrister might twist his conscience into thinking, that he could earn a hundred pounds very easily by doing a good action--in giving me, a criminal, up to justice."
"Nonsense, Frederick!--because I know a lawyer on whose honour I can rely; of whose cleverness in his profession people speak very highly; and who would, I think, take a good deal of trouble for any of--of Aunt Shaw"s relations Mr. Henry Lennox, papa."
"I think it is a good idea," said Mr. Hale. "But don"t propose anything which will detain Frederick in England. Don"t, for your mother"s sake."
"You could go to London to-morrow evening by a night-train," continued Margaret, warming up into her plan. "He must go to-morrow, I"m afraid, papa," said she, tenderly; "we fixed that, because of Mr. Bell, and Dixon"s disagreeable acquaintance."
"Yes; I must go to-morrow," said Frederick decidedly.
Mr. Hale groaned. "I can"t bear to part with you, and yet I am miserable with anxiety as long as you stop here."
"Well then," said Margaret, "listen to my plan. He gets to London on Friday morning. I will--you might--no! it would be better for me to give him a note to Mr. Lennox. You will find him at his chambers in the Temple."
"I will write down a list of all the names I can remember on board the Orion. I could leave it with him to ferret them out. He is Edith"s husband"s brother, isn"t he? I remember your naming him in your letters. I have money in Barbour"s hands. I can pay a pretty long bill, if there is any chance of success Money, dear father, that I had meant for a different purpose; so I shall only consider it as borrowed from you and Margaret."
"Don"t do that," said Margaret. "You won"t risk it if you do. And it will be a risk only it is worth trying. You can sail from London as well as from Liverpool?"
"To be sure, little goose. Wherever I feel water heaving under a plank, there I feel at home. I"ll pick up some craft or other to take me off, never fear. I won"t stay twenty-four hours in London, away from you on the one hand, and from somebody else on the other."
It was rather a comfort to Margaret that Frederick took it into his head to look over her shoulder as she wrote to Mr. Lennox. If she had not been thus compelled to write steadily and concisely on, she might have hesitated over many a word, and been puzzled to choose between many an expression, in the awkwardness of being the first to resume the intercourse of which the concluding event had been so unpleasant to both sides. However, the note was taken from her before she had even had time to look it over, and treasured up in a pocket-book, out of which fell a long lock of black hair, the sight of which caused Frederick"s eyes to glow with pleasure.
"Now you would like to see that, wouldn"t you?" said he. "No! you must wait till you see her herself She is too perfect to be known by fragments. No mean brick shall be a specimen of the building of my palace."
CHAPTER x.x.xII.
MISCHANCES.
"What! remain to be Denounced--dragged, it may be, in chains." WERNER.
All the next day they sate together--they three. Mr. Hale hardly ever spoke but when his children asked him questions, and forced him, as it were, into the present. Frederick"s grief was no more to be seen or heard; the first paroxysm had pa.s.sed over, and now he was ashamed of having been so battered down by emotion; and though his sorrow for the loss of his mother was a deep real feeling, and would last out his life, it was never to be spoken of again. Margaret, not so pa.s.sionate at first, was more suffering now. At times she cried a good deal; and her manner, even when speaking on indifferent things, had a mournful tenderness about it, which was deepened whenever her looks fell on Frederick, and she thought of his rapidly approaching departure. She was glad he was going, on her father"s account, however much she might grieve over it on her own. The anxious terror in which Mr. Hale lived lest his son should be detected and captured, far out-weighed the pleasure he derived from his presence. The nervousness had increased since Mrs. Hale"s death, probably because he dwelt upon it more exclusively. He started at every unusual sound; and was never comfortable unless Frederick sate out of the immediate view of any one entering the room. Towards evening he said: "You will go with Frederick to the station, Margaret? I shall want to know he is safely off. You will bring me word that he is clear of Milton, at any rate?"
"Certainly," said Margaret. "I shall like it, if you won"t be lonely without me, papa."
"No, no! I should always be fancying some one had known him, and that he had been stopped, unless you could tell me you had seen him off. And go to the Outwood station. It is quite as near, and not so many people about. Take a cab there. There is less risk of his being seen. What time is your train, Fred?"
"Ten minutes past six; very nearly dark. So what will you do, Margaret?"
"Oh, I can manage. I am getting very brave and very hard. It is a well-lighted road all the way home, if it should be dark. But I was out last week much later."
Margaret was thankful when the parting was over--the parting from the dead mother and the living father. She hurried Frederick into the cab, in order to shorten a scene which she saw was so bitterly painful to her father, who would accompany his son as he took his last look at his mother. Partly in consequence of this, and partly owing to one of the very common mistakes in the "Railway Guide" as to the times when trains arrive at the smaller stations, they found, on reaching Outwood, that they had nearly twenty minutes to spare. The booking-office was not open, so they could not even take the ticket. They accordingly went down the flight of steps that led to the level of the ground below the railway. There was a broad cinder-path diagonally crossing a field which lay along-side of the carriage-road, and they went there to walk backwards and forwards for the few minutes they had to spare.
Margaret"s hand lay in Frederick"s arm. He took hold of it affectionately.
"Margaret! I am going to consult Mr. Lennox as to the chance of exculpating myself, so that I may return to England whenever I choose, more for your sake than for the sake of any one else. I can"t bear to think of your lonely position if anything should happen to my father. He looks sadly changed--terribly shaken. I wish you could get him to think of the Cadiz plan, for many reasons. What could you do if he were taken away? You have no friend near. We are curiously bare of relations."
Margaret could hardly keep from crying at the tender anxiety with which Frederick was bringing before her an event which she herself felt was not very improbable, so severely had the cares of the last few months told upon Mr. Hale. But she tried to rally as she said: "There have been such strange unexpected changes in my life during these last two years, that I feel more than ever that it is not worth while to calculate too closely what I should do if any future event took place. I try to think only upon the present." She paused; they were standing still for a moment, close on the field side of the stile leading into the road; the setting sun fell on their faces. Frederick held her hand in his, and looked with wistful anxiety into her face, reading there more care and trouble than she would betray by words. She went on: "We shall write often to one another, and I will promise--for I see it will set your mind at ease--to tell you every worry I have. Papa is"--she started a little, a hardly visible start--but Frederick felt the sudden motion of the hand he held, and turned his full face to the road, along which a horseman was slowly riding, just pa.s.sing the very stile where they stood. Margaret bowed; her bow was stiffly returned.
"Who is that?" said Frederick, almost before he was out of hearing. Margaret was a little drooping, a little flushed, as she replied: "Mr. Thornton; you saw him before, you know."
"Only his back. He is an unprepossessing-looking fellow. What a scowl he has!"
"Something has happened to vex him," said Margaret, apologetically. "You would not have thought him unprepossessing if you had seen him with mamma."
"I fancy it must be time to go and take my ticket. If I had known how dark it would be, we wouldn"t have sent back the cab, Margaret."
"Oh, don"t fidget about that. I can take a cab here, if I like; or go back by the rail-road, when I should have shops and people and lamps all the way from the Milton station-house. Don"t think of me; take care of yourself. I am sick with the thought that Leonards may be in the same train with you. Look well into the carriage before you get in."
They went back to the station. Margaret insisted upon going into the full light of the flaring gas inside to take the ticket. Some idle-looking young men were lounging about with the stationmaster. Margaret thought she had seen the face of one of them before, and returned him a proud look of offended dignity for his somewhat impertinent stare of undisguised admiration. She went hastily to her brother, who was standing outside, and took hold of his arm. "Have you got your bag? Let us walk about here on the platform," said she, a little flurried at the idea of so soon being left alone, and her bravery oozing out rather faster than she liked to acknowledge even to herself. She heard a step following them along the flags; it stopped when they stopped, looking out along the line and hearing the whizz of the coming train. They did not speak; their hearts were too full. Another moment, and the train would be here; a minute more, and he would be gone. Margaret almost repented the urgency with which she had entreated him to go to London; it was throwing more chances of detection in his way. If he had sailed for Spain by Liverpool, he might have been off in two or three hours.
Frederick turned round, right facing the lamp, where the gas darted up in vivid antic.i.p.ation of the train. A man in the dress of a railway porter started forward; a bad-looking man, who seemed to have drunk himself into a state of brutality, although his senses were in perfect order.
"By your leave, miss!" said he, pushing Margaret rudely on one side, and seizing Frederick by the collar.
"Your name is Hale, I believe?"
In an instant--how, Margaret did not see, for everything danced before her eyes--but by some sleight of wrestling, Frederick had tripped him up, and he fell from the height of three or four feet, which the platform was elevated above the s.p.a.ce of soft ground, by the side of the railroad. There he lay.
"Run, run!" gasped Margaret. "The train is here. It was Leonards, was it? oh, run! I will carry your bag." And she took him by the arm to push him along with all her feeble force. A door was opened in a carriage--he jumped in; and as he leant out t say, "G.o.d bless you, Margaret!" the train rushed past her; an she was left standing alone. She was so terribly sick and faint that she was thankful to be able to turn into the ladies" waiting-room, and sit down for an instant. At first she could do nothing but gasp for breath. It was such a hurry; such a sickening alarm; such a near chance. If the train had not been there at the moment, the man would have jumped up again and called for a.s.sistance to arrest him. She wondered if the man had got up: she tried to remember if she had seen him move; she wondered if he could have been seriously hurt. She ventured out; the platform was all alight, but still quite deserted; she went to the end, and looked over, somewhat fearfully. No one was there; and then she was glad she had made herself go, and inspect, for otherwise terrible thoughts would have haunted her dreams. And even as it was, she was so trembling and affrighted that she felt she could not walk home along the road, which did indeed seem lonely and dark, as she gazed down upon it from the blaze of the station. She would wait till the down train pa.s.sed and take her seat in it. But what if Leonards recognised her as Frederick"s companion! She peered about, before venturing into the booking-office to take her ticket. There were only some railway officials standing about; and talking loud to one another.
"So Leonards has been drinking again!" said one, seemingly in authority. "He"ll need all his boasted influence to keep his place this time."
"Where is he?" asked another, while Margaret, her back towards them, was counting her change with trembling fingers, not daring to turn round until she heard the answer to this question.
"I don"t know. He came in not five minutes ago, with some long story or other about a fall he"d had, swearing awfully; and wanted to borrow some money from me to go to London by the next up-train. He made all sorts of tipsy promises, but I"d something else to do than listen to him; I told him to go about his business; and he went off at the front door."
"He"s at the nearest vaults, I"ll be bound," said the first speaker. "Your money would have gone there too, if you"d been such a fool as to lend it."
"Catch me! I knew better what his London meant. Why, he has never paid me off that five shillings"--and so they went on.
And now all Margaret"s anxiety was for the train to come. She hid herself once more in the ladies" waiting-room, and fancied every noise was Leonards" step--every loud and boisterous voice was his. But no one came near her until the train drew up; when she was civilly helped into a carriage by a porter, into whose face she durst not look till they were in motion, and then she saw that it was not Leonards".
CHAPTER x.x.xIII.
PEACE.
"Sleep on, my love, in thy cold bed, Never to be disquieted! My last Good Night--thou wilt not wake Till I thy fate shall overtake." DR. KING.
Home seemed unnaturally quiet after all this terror and noisy commotion. Her father had seen all due preparation made for her refreshment on her return; and then sate down again in his accustomed chair, to fall into one of his sad waking dreams. Dixon had got Mary Higgins to scold and direct in the kitchen; and her scolding was not the less energetic because it was delivered in an angry whisper; for, speaking above her breath she would have thought irreverent, as long as there was any one dead lying in the house. Margaret had resolved not to mention the crowning and closing affright to her father. There was no use in speaking about it; it had ended well; the only thing to be feared was lest Leonards should in some way borrow money enough to effect his purpose of following Frederick to London, and hunting him out there. But there were immense chances against the success of any such plan; and Margaret determined not to torment herself by thinking of what she could do nothing to prevent. Frederick would be as much on his guard as she could put him; and in a day or two at most he would be safely out of England.
"I suppose we shall hear from Mr. Bell to-morrow," said Margaret.
"Yes," replied her father. "I suppose so."
"If he can come, he will be here to-morrow evening, I should think."
"If he cannot come, I shall ask Mr. Thornton to go with me to the funeral. I cannot go alone. I should break down utterly."
"Don"t ask Mr. Thornton, papa. Let me go with you," said Margaret, impetuously.
"You! My dear, women do not generally go."
"No: because they can"t control themselves. Women of our cla.s.s don"t go, because they have no power over their emotions, and yet are ashamed of showing them. Poor women go, and don"t care if they are seen overwhelmed with grief. But I promise you, papa, that if you will let me go, I will be no trouble. Don"t have a stranger, and leave me out. Dear papa! if Mr. Bell cannot come, I shall go. I won"t urge my wish against your will, if he does."
Mr. Bell could not come. He had the gout. It was a most affectionate letter, and expressed great and true regret for his inability to attend. He hoped to come and pay them a visit soon, if they would have him; his Milton property required some looking after, and his agent had written to him to say that his presence was absolutely necessary; or else he had avoided coming near Milton as long as he could, and now the only thing that would reconcile him to this necessary visit was the idea that he should see, and might possibly be able to comfort his old friend.
Margaret had all the difficulty in the world to persuade her father not to invite Mr. Thornton. She had an indescribable repugnance to this step being taken. The night before the funeral, came a stately note from Mrs. Thornton to Miss Hale, saying that, at her son"s desire, their carriage should attend the funeral, if it would not be disagreeable to the family. Margaret tossed the note to her father.
"Oh, don"t let us have these forms," said she. "Let us go alone--you and me, papa. They don"t care for us, or else he would have offered to go himself, and not have proposed this sending an empty carriage."
"I thought you were so extremely averse to his going, Margaret," said Mr. Hale in some surprise.
"And so I am. I don"t want him to come at all; and I should especially dislike the idea of our asking him. But this seems such a mockery of mourning that I did not expect it from him." She startled her father by bursting into tears. She had been so subdued in her grief, so thoughtful for others, so gentle and patient in all things, that he could not understand her impatient ways to-night; she seemed agitated and restless; and at all the tenderness which her father in his turn now lavished upon her, she only cried the more.
She pa.s.sed so bad a night that she was ill prepared for the additional anxiety caused by a letter received from Frederick. Mr. Lennox was out of town; his clerk said that he would return by the following Tuesday at the latest; that he might possibly be at home on Monday. Consequently, after some consideration, Frederick had determined upon remaining in London a day or two longer. He had thought of coming down to Milton again; the temptation had been very strong; but the idea of Mr. Bell domesticated in his father"s house, and the alarm he had received at the last moment at the railway station, had made him resolve to stay in London. Margaret might be a.s.sured he would take every precaution against being tracked by Leonards. Margaret was thankful that she received this letter while her father was absent in her mother"s room. If he had been present, he would have expected her to read it aloud to him, and it would have raised in him a state of nervous alarm which she would have found it impossible to soothe away. There was not merely the fact, which disturbed her excessively, of Frederick"s detention in London, but there were allusions to the recognition at the last moment at Milton, and the possibility of a pursuit, which made her blood run cold; and how then would it have affected her father? Many a time did Margaret repent of having suggested and urged on the plan of consulting Mr. Lennox. At the moment, it had seemed as if it would occasion so little delay--add so little to the apparently small chances of detection; and yet everything that had since occurred had tended to make it so undesirable. Margaret battled hard against this regret of hers for what could not now be helped; this self-reproach for having said what had at the time appeared to be wise, but which after events were proving to have been so foolish. But her father was in too depressed a state of mind and body to struggle healthily; he would succ.u.mb to all these causes for morbid regret over what could not be recalled. Margaret summoned up all her forces to her aid. Her father seemed to have forgotten that they had any reason to expect a letter from Frederick that morning. He was absorbed in one idea--that the last visible token of the presence of his wife was to be carried away from him, and hidden from his sight. He trembled pitifully as the undertaker"s man was arranging his c.r.a.pe draperies around him. He looked wistfully at Margaret; and, when released, he tottered towards her, murmuring, "Pray for me, Margaret. I have no strength left in me. I cannot pray. I give her up because I must. I try to bear it: indeed I do. I know it is G.o.d"s will. But I cannot see why she died. Pray for me, Margaret, that I may have faith to pray. It is a great strait, my child."
Margaret sat by him in the coach, almost supporting him in her arms; and repeating all the n.o.ble verses of holy comfort, or texts expressive of faithful resignation, that she could remember. Her voice never faltered; and she herself gained strength by doing this. Her father"s lips moved after her, repeating the well-known texts as her words suggested them; it was terrible to see the patient struggling effort to obtain the resignation which he had not strength to take into his heart as a part of himself.
Margaret"s fort.i.tude nearly gave way as Dixon, with a slight motion of her hand, directed her notice to Nicholas Higgins and his daughter, standing a little aloof, but deeply attentive to the ceremonial. Nicholas wore his usual fustian clothes, but had a bit of black stuff sewn round his hat--a mark of mourning which he had never shown to his daughter Bessy"s memory. But Mr. Hale saw nothing. He went on repeating to himself, mechanically as it were, all the funeral service as it was read by the officiating clergyman; he sighed twice or thrice when all was ended; and then, putting his hand on Margaret"s arm, he mutely entreated to be led away, as if he were blind, and she his faithful guide.
Dixon sobbed aloud; she covered her face with her handkerchief, and was so absorbed in her own grief, that she did not perceive that the crowd, attracted on such occasions, was dispersing, till she was spoken to by some one close at hand. It was Mr. Thornton. He had been present all the time, standing, with bent head, behind a group of people, so that, in fact, no one had recognised him.
"I beg your pardon,--but, can you tell me how Mr. Hale is? And Miss Hale, too? I should like to know how they both are."