Amis: Well, they say you won"t be reading; you"ll be having some kind of cybernetic experience. I think that the future of the book perhaps will be that the book will coexist with some kind of cybernetic experience, where the punter, the depositor (or whatever you want to call him), may read your book and then take you out to dinner in cybers.p.a.ce - looking ahead about a hundred years. Well, they say you won"t be reading; you"ll be having some kind of cybernetic experience. I think that the future of the book perhaps will be that the book will coexist with some kind of cybernetic experience, where the punter, the depositor (or whatever you want to call him), may read your book and then take you out to dinner in cybers.p.a.ce - looking ahead about a hundred years.
Now, I"m going to ask you this question because I"m always tortured by it. This is the sort of invariable question of the tour. Do you set yourself a time to write every day? How hard do you press on the paper when you write? I"m asked this so unerringly that I think people suspect that I"m going to reveal that what you do is you go into your study and you plug your ear into the light socket and then some inner voice tells you what to write. But what is your routine and how do you go about it?
Leonard: I write every day when I"m writing; some Sat.u.r.days and Sundays, a few hours each day. Because I want to stay with it. If a day goes by and you haven"t done anything, or a couple of days, it"s difficult to get back into the rhythm of it. I usually start working around nine-thirty and I work until six. I"m lucky to get what I consider four clean pages. They"re clean until the next day, the next morning. The time flies by. I can"t believe it. When I look at the clock and it"s three o"clock and I think, "Good, I"ve got three more hours." And then I think, "I must have the best job in the world." I don"t look at this as work. I don"t look at it as any kind of test, any kind of proof of what I can do. I have a good time. I write every day when I"m writing; some Sat.u.r.days and Sundays, a few hours each day. Because I want to stay with it. If a day goes by and you haven"t done anything, or a couple of days, it"s difficult to get back into the rhythm of it. I usually start working around nine-thirty and I work until six. I"m lucky to get what I consider four clean pages. They"re clean until the next day, the next morning. The time flies by. I can"t believe it. When I look at the clock and it"s three o"clock and I think, "Good, I"ve got three more hours." And then I think, "I must have the best job in the world." I don"t look at this as work. I don"t look at it as any kind of test, any kind of proof of what I can do. I have a good time.
Amis: And it just seems to flow? There are no days when whole hours are spent gazing out of the window, picking your nose, making coffee? And it just seems to flow? There are no days when whole hours are spent gazing out of the window, picking your nose, making coffee?
Leonard: Oh yeah, there are whole hours" work to make one short paragraph work. Oh yeah, there are whole hours" work to make one short paragraph work.
Amis: I want to ask about your prose. Your prose makes Raymond Chandler look clumsy. Now the way I do it is: I say the sentence in my head until nothing sticks out, there are no "elbows," there are no stubbings of toe; it just seems to chime with some tuning fork inside my head. And then I know the sentence is ready. In your work, pages and pages go by without me spotting any "elbows." Even with the great stylists of modern fiction, you know you"re always going to come across phrases like "Standing on the landing" or "the cook took a look at the book." There"s always some "elbow" sticking out, there"s some rhyme causing the reader to pause and wonder and think, "That"s not quite right." With you, it"s all planed flat. How do you plane your prose into this wonderful instrument? I want to ask about your prose. Your prose makes Raymond Chandler look clumsy. Now the way I do it is: I say the sentence in my head until nothing sticks out, there are no "elbows," there are no stubbings of toe; it just seems to chime with some tuning fork inside my head. And then I know the sentence is ready. In your work, pages and pages go by without me spotting any "elbows." Even with the great stylists of modern fiction, you know you"re always going to come across phrases like "Standing on the landing" or "the cook took a look at the book." There"s always some "elbow" sticking out, there"s some rhyme causing the reader to pause and wonder and think, "That"s not quite right." With you, it"s all planed flat. How do you plane your prose into this wonderful instrument?
Leonard: First of all, I"m always writing from a point of view. I decide what the purpose of the scene is, and at least begin with some purpose. But, even more important, from whose point of view is this scene seen? Because then the narrative will take on somewhat the sound of the person who is seeing the scene. And from his dialogue, that"s what goes, somewhat, into the narrative. I start to write and I think, "Upon entering the room," and I know I don"t want to say "Upon entering the room." I don"t want my writing to sound like the way we were taught to write. Because I don"t want you to be aware of my writing. I don"t have the language. I have to rely upon my characters. First of all, I"m always writing from a point of view. I decide what the purpose of the scene is, and at least begin with some purpose. But, even more important, from whose point of view is this scene seen? Because then the narrative will take on somewhat the sound of the person who is seeing the scene. And from his dialogue, that"s what goes, somewhat, into the narrative. I start to write and I think, "Upon entering the room," and I know I don"t want to say "Upon entering the room." I don"t want my writing to sound like the way we were taught to write. Because I don"t want you to be aware of my writing. I don"t have the language. I have to rely upon my characters.
Amis: So, when you say it"s character-driven, do you mean you"re thinking, How would this character see this scene? Because you"re usually third-person. You don"t directly speak through your characters, but there is a kind of third-person that is a first-person in disguise. Is that the way you go at it? So, when you say it"s character-driven, do you mean you"re thinking, How would this character see this scene? Because you"re usually third-person. You don"t directly speak through your characters, but there is a kind of third-person that is a first-person in disguise. Is that the way you go at it?
Leonard: It takes on somewhat of a first-person sound, but not really. Because I like third-person. I don"t want to be stuck with one character"s viewpoint, because there are too many viewpoints. And, of course, the bad guys" viewpoints are a lot more fun. What they do is more fun. A few years ago, a friend of mine in the publishing business called up and said, "Has your good guy decided to do anything yet?" [Laughter] It takes on somewhat of a first-person sound, but not really. Because I like third-person. I don"t want to be stuck with one character"s viewpoint, because there are too many viewpoints. And, of course, the bad guys" viewpoints are a lot more fun. What they do is more fun. A few years ago, a friend of mine in the publishing business called up and said, "Has your good guy decided to do anything yet?" [Laughter]
Or, I think I should start this book with the main character. Or I start a book with who I think is the main character, but a hundred pages into the book I say, "This guy"s not the main character; he"s running out of gas; I don"t even like him anymore, his att.i.tude; he"s changed." But he"s changed and there"s nothing I could do about it. It"s just the kind of person he is. So then I have to bring somebody along fast. Do you run into that?
Amis: What I do find, and my father Kingsley Amis used to find, is that when you come up against some difficulty, some mechanism in the novel that isn"t working, it fills you with despair and you think, "I"m not going to be able to get around this." Then you look back at what you"ve done, and you find you already have a mechanism in place to get you through this. A minor character, say, who"s well placed to get the information across that you need to put across. I always used to think (and he agreed) that, thank G.o.d writing is much more of an unconscious process than many people think. What I do find, and my father Kingsley Amis used to find, is that when you come up against some difficulty, some mechanism in the novel that isn"t working, it fills you with despair and you think, "I"m not going to be able to get around this." Then you look back at what you"ve done, and you find you already have a mechanism in place to get you through this. A minor character, say, who"s well placed to get the information across that you need to put across. I always used to think (and he agreed) that, thank G.o.d writing is much more of an unconscious process than many people think.
I think the guy in the street thinks that the novelist, first of all, decides on his subject, what should be addressed; then he thinks of his theme and his plot and then jots down the various characters that will ill.u.s.trate these various themes. That sounds like a description of writer"s block to me. I think you"re in a very bad way when that happens. Vladimir Nabokov, when he spoke about Lolita Lolita, refers to the "first throb" of Lolita Lolita going through him, and I recognize that feeling. All it is is your next book. It"s the next thing that"s there for you to write. Now, do you settle down and map out your plots? I suspect you don"t. going through him, and I recognize that feeling. All it is is your next book. It"s the next thing that"s there for you to write. Now, do you settle down and map out your plots? I suspect you don"t.
Leonard: No, I don"t. I start with a character. Let"s say I want to write a book about a bail bondsman or a process server or a bank robber and a woman federal marshal. And they meet and something happens. That"s as much of an idea as I begin with. And then I see him in a situation, and I begin writing it and one thing leads to another. By page 100, roughly, I should have my characters a.s.sembled. I should know my characters because they"ve sort of auditioned in the opening scenes, and I can find out if they can talk or not. And if they can"t talk, they"re out. Or they get a minor role. No, I don"t. I start with a character. Let"s say I want to write a book about a bail bondsman or a process server or a bank robber and a woman federal marshal. And they meet and something happens. That"s as much of an idea as I begin with. And then I see him in a situation, and I begin writing it and one thing leads to another. By page 100, roughly, I should have my characters a.s.sembled. I should know my characters because they"ve sort of auditioned in the opening scenes, and I can find out if they can talk or not. And if they can"t talk, they"re out. Or they get a minor role.
But in every book there"s a minor character
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who comes along and pushes his way into the plot. He"s just needed to give some information, but all of a sudden he comes to life for me. Maybe it"s the way he says it. He might not even have a name the first time he appears. The second time he has a name. The third time he has a few more lines, and away he goes, and he becomes a plot turn in the book.
When I was writing Cuba Libre Cuba Libre, I was about 250 pages into it and George Will called up and said, "I want to send out forty of your books" - this was the previous book [Out of Sight] - "at Christmastime. May I send them to you and a list of names to inscribe?" I said, "Of course." He said, "What are you doing now?" I said, "I"m doing Cuba a hundred years ago." And he said, "Oh, crime in Cuba." And he hung up the phone. And I thought, "I don"t have a crime in this book." And I"m 250 pages into it. [Laughter] It was a crime that this guy was running guns to Cuba, but that"s not what I really write about. Where"s the bag of money that everybody wants? I didn"t have it. So, then I started weaving it into the narrative. I didn"t have to go back far, and I was on my way.
Amis: I admire the fluidity of your process because it"s meant to be a rule in the highbrow novel that the characters have no free will at all. I admire the fluidity of your process because it"s meant to be a rule in the highbrow novel that the characters have no free will at all.
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E.M. Forster said he used to line up his characters before beginning a novel, and he would say, "Right, no larks." [Laughter] And Nabokov, when this was quoted to him, he looked aghast, and he said, "My characters cringe when I come near them." He said, "I"ve seen whole avenues of imagined trees lose their leaves with terror at my approach." [Laughter]
Let"s talk about Cuba Libre Cuba Libre, which is an amazing departure in my view. When I was reading it, I had to keep turning to the front cover to check that it was a book by you. How did it get started? I gather that you"ve been wanting to write this book for thirty years. It has a kind of charge of long-suppressed desire.
Leonard: In 1957, I borrowed a book from a friend called In 1957, I borrowed a book from a friend called The Splendid Little War The Splendid Little War. It was a picture book, a coffee-table book of photographs of the Spanish-American War - photographs of the Maine Maine, before and after; photographs of the troops on San Juan Hill; newspaper headlines leading up to the war; a lot of shots of Havana. I was writing Westerns at the time, and I thought, I could drop a cowboy into this place and get away with it. But I didn"t. A couple of years ago, I was trying to think of a sequel to Get Shorty Get Shorty. And I was trying to work Chili Palmer into the dress business. I don"t 102.
know why except that I love runway shows. I gave up on that. And I saw that book again, The Splendid Little War The Splendid Little War, because I hadn"t returned it to my friend in "57. And I thought, "I"m going to do that." Yeah, the time has come. So, I did.
Amis: In a famous essay, Tom Wolfe said that the writers were missing all the real stories that were out there. And that they spent too much time searching for inspiration and should spend ninety-five percent of their time sweating over research. The result was a tremendously readable book, In a famous essay, Tom Wolfe said that the writers were missing all the real stories that were out there. And that they spent too much time searching for inspiration and should spend ninety-five percent of their time sweating over research. The result was a tremendously readable book, The Bonfire of the Vanities The Bonfire of the Vanities. Now you, sir, have a full-time researcher.
Leonard: Yes, Gregg Sutter. He can answer any of your questions that I don"t know. Yes, Gregg Sutter. He can answer any of your questions that I don"t know.
Amis: Were you inspired by the research he put into this book? Were you inspired by the research he put into this book?
Leonard: He got me everything I needed to know. I asked him to see if he could find out how much it cost to transport horses from Arizona to East Texas and then to Havana. And he did. He found a cattle company that had been in business over He got me everything I needed to know. I asked him to see if he could find out how much it cost to transport horses from Arizona to East Texas and then to Havana. And he did. He found a cattle company that had been in business over 103.
100 years ago and was shipping cattle then. He found an old ledger book and copied it and faxed it to me.
Amis: Among the differences from your earlier books, this book is more discursive, less dialogue-driven and, till the end, less action-driven. Toward the end, you get a familiar Leonard scenario where there"s a chunk of money sitting around, and various people are after it and you"re pretty confident that it"s going to go to the least-undeserving people present. And it"s not hard-bitten; it"s a much more romantic book than we"re used to from you. Could your Westerns have had such romance? Among the differences from your earlier books, this book is more discursive, less dialogue-driven and, till the end, less action-driven. Toward the end, you get a familiar Leonard scenario where there"s a chunk of money sitting around, and various people are after it and you"re pretty confident that it"s going to go to the least-undeserving people present. And it"s not hard-bitten; it"s a much more romantic book than we"re used to from you. Could your Westerns have had such romance?
Leonard: No. In my Westerns there was little romance except in No. In my Westerns there was little romance except in Valdez Is Coming Valdez Is Coming, which is my favorite of the Westerns. No, I just wanted to make this a romantic adventure story.
Amis: And there"s a kind of political romanticism, too. You"ve always sided with the underdog, imaginatively; one can sense that. And who could be more of an underdog than a criminal? And your criminals have always been rather implausibly likable and gentle creatures. What is your view about crime in America? And there"s a kind of political romanticism, too. You"ve always sided with the underdog, imaginatively; one can sense that. And who could be more of an underdog than a criminal? And your criminals have always been rather implausibly likable and gentle creatures. What is your view about crime in America?
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Leonard: I don"t have a view about crime in America. There isn"t anything I can say that would be interesting at all. When I"m fashioning my bad guys, though (and sometimes a good guy has had a criminal past and then he can go either way; to me, he"s the best kind of character to have), I don"t think of them as bad guys. I just think of them as, for the most part, normal people who get up in the morning and they wonder what they"re going to have for breakfast, and they sneeze, and they wonder if they should call their mother, and then they rob a bank. Because that"s the way they are. Except for real hard-core guys.
Amis: The really bad guys. The really bad guys.
Leonard: Yeah, the really bad guys.... Yeah, the really bad guys....
Amis: Before we end, I"d just like to ask you about why you keep writing. I just read my father"s collected letters, which are going to be published in a year or two. It was with some dread that I realized that the writer"s life never pauses. You can never sit back and rest on what you"ve done. You are driven on remorselessly by something, whether it"s dedication or desire to defeat time. What is it that Before we end, I"d just like to ask you about why you keep writing. I just read my father"s collected letters, which are going to be published in a year or two. It was with some dread that I realized that the writer"s life never pauses. You can never sit back and rest on what you"ve done. You are driven on remorselessly by something, whether it"s dedication or desire to defeat time. What is it that 105.
drives you? Is it just pure enjoyment that makes you settle down every morning to carry out this other life that you live?
Leonard: It"s the most satisfying thing I can imagine doing. To write that scene and then read it and it works. I love the sound of it. There"s nothing better than that. The notoriety that comes later doesn"t compare to the doing of it. I"ve been doing it for almost forty-seven years, and I"m still trying to make it better. Even though I know my limitations; I know what I can"t do. I know that if I tried to write, say, as an omniscient author, it would be so mediocre. It"s the most satisfying thing I can imagine doing. To write that scene and then read it and it works. I love the sound of it. There"s nothing better than that. The notoriety that comes later doesn"t compare to the doing of it. I"ve been doing it for almost forty-seven years, and I"m still trying to make it better. Even though I know my limitations; I know what I can"t do. I know that if I tried to write, say, as an omniscient author, it would be so mediocre. You You can do more forms of writing than I can, including essays. My essay would sound, at best, like a college paper. can do more forms of writing than I can, including essays. My essay would sound, at best, like a college paper.
Amis: Well, why isn"t there a Martin Amis Day? Because January 16, 1998, was Elmore Leonard Day in the state of Michigan, and it seems that here, in Los Angeles, it"s been Elmore Leonard Day for the last decade. [Laughter] Well, why isn"t there a Martin Amis Day? Because January 16, 1998, was Elmore Leonard Day in the state of Michigan, and it seems that here, in Los Angeles, it"s been Elmore Leonard Day for the last decade. [Laughter]
[Applause]
Editor s note: Martin Amis is the author of many novels - including Martin Amis is the author of many novels - including Money: A Suicide Note Money: A Suicide Note; London Fields London Fields; and Night Train Night Train - and many works of nonfic - and many works of nonfic
About the Author.
Elmore Leonard has written more than three dozen books during his highly successful writing career, including the national bestsellers Tishomingo Blues, Pagan Babies, and Be Cool. Many of his novels have been made into movies, including Get Shorty, Out of Sight, Valdez Is Coming, and Rum Punch (as Quentin Tarantino"s Jackie Brown). He has been named Grand Master by Mystery Writers of America and lives in Bloom-field Village, Michigan, with his wife.
ELMORE LEONARD.
RIDING THE RAP.
"Vintage Leonard . . . He keeps you guessing, turning pages, gnawing your way to the end."
San Francisco Chronicle "His books defy cla.s.sification. . . . What Leonard does is write fully realized novels, using elements of the cla.s.sic American crime novel and populating them with characters so true and believable you want to read their lines aloud to someone you really like."
Dallas Morning News "Riding the Rap shows Elmore Leonard at the top of his form. Whatever you call his novels, they always read like Elmore Leonard, distinctive in style and vision, brilliantly inventive in plot and characters." shows Elmore Leonard at the top of his form. Whatever you call his novels, they always read like Elmore Leonard, distinctive in style and vision, brilliantly inventive in plot and characters."
Los Angeles Times "Another masterpiece from the master . . . Leonard has never been better." James Crumley "The finest thriller writer alive."
Village Voice "n.o.body but n.o.body on the current scene can match his ability to serve up violence so lighthandedly, with so supremely deadpan a flourish."
Detroit News "Riding the Rap made me feel like a kid again. Kept me up until four in the morning. When Elmore Leonard"s people start talking, I can"t help myself, I have to listen." Lawrence Block made me feel like a kid again. Kept me up until four in the morning. When Elmore Leonard"s people start talking, I can"t help myself, I have to listen." Lawrence Block "No one can beat Elmore Leonard when it comes to mordant humor and shockingly bizarre situations."
Orlando Sentinel "Vintage Leonard. Don"t miss it. . . . Following Raylan Givens through the sea grape and palmetto, the lonely freeways and the shopping centers of South Florida, watching the crazies through his eyes, is worth the price of this book."
Cleveland Plain Dealer "A plot as syncopated and smooth as Leonard"s legendary dialogue . . . Comedy and brutality converge in this loopy thriller-which may be the only American crime novel in which Jell-O provides a crucial clue."
Newsday "No one creates more realistic sleazebags than Leonard. This time, Arno and Givens are up against three of the slimiest-and most hilarious-characters Leonard ever created."
Denver Post "The hottest thriller writer in the U.S."
Time "No one writes better dialogue. No one conveys society"s seedier or marginal characters more convincingly . . . Leonard"s sardonic view of the world proves immensely entertaining, and not a little thought-provoking."
Detroit Free Press "Elmore Leonard is a distinctive American artist, the way our great jazz musicians are. He proves once again with Riding the Rap Riding the Rap that there is still his sound, and then everybody else"s." Mike Lupica that there is still his sound, and then everybody else"s." Mike Lupica "Riding the Rap is the work of an old master- it"s taut, fierce, and mesmerizing." Stephen Hunter is the work of an old master- it"s taut, fierce, and mesmerizing." Stephen Hunter "Tart, hip, and funny . . . As well as inimitable nutball characters and that unmistakable dialogue, Riding the Rap Riding the Rap is shot through with sly, mordant street wisdom." is shot through with sly, mordant street wisdom."
Chicago Sun-Times "As always, Leonard"s cinematic grasp of scene and setting, his ability to arouse within us a helpless sympathy for even the lowest of his characters, his quirky pacing and plot twists, and his sly humor and artfully oddball prose sear our eyeb.a.l.l.s and keep the pages turning?"
Miami Herald "n.o.body but n.o.body in the business does it better. . . . Leonard has a great feel for misfit alliances, and in novel after novel, he nails them in all their menacing, gut-busting funny glory."
New York Daily News "Elmore Leonard is at the top of his game."
Seattle Times "The contemporary master of American crime fiction . . . Suffice it to say that while Riding the Rap Riding the Rap demonstrates again that Elmore Leonard is no slouch when it comes to pulling together a dandy plot, it is for his dead-on characterizations and pitch-perfect dialogue that we read his books." demonstrates again that Elmore Leonard is no slouch when it comes to pulling together a dandy plot, it is for his dead-on characterizations and pitch-perfect dialogue that we read his books."
Atlanta Journal-Const.i.tution "Leonard advances his plots in spare, cinematic fashion, saving the terse conversational giveand-take by which his characters make themselves known. Raylan Givens . . . is the prototype Leonard hero: alert, knowing, and unillusioned."
People "The coolest, hottest writer in America."
Chicago Tribune "Elmore Leonard has the best ear for dialogue in the crime-writing biz. Under Leonard"s control, Riding the Rap Riding the Rap glides to a conclusion both violent and funny." glides to a conclusion both violent and funny."
Playboy "As well as a master storyteller, Leonard is one of our funniest writers, and for decades has richly dramatized elements of our culture. Riding the Rap Riding the Rap is wonderful." Andre Dubus is wonderful." Andre Dubus The Bounty Hunters The Law at Randado Escape from Five Shadows Last Stand at Saber River Hombre The Big Bounce The Moonshine War Valdez Is Coming Forty Lashes Less One Mr. Majestyk 52 Pickup Swag Unknown Man #89 The Hunted The Switch Gunsights Gold Coast City Primeval Split Images Cat Chaster Stick LaBrava Glitz Bandits Touch Freaky Deaky Killshot Get Shorty Maximum Bob Rum Punch p.r.o.nto Riding the Rap Out of Sight Cuba Libre The Tonto Woman and Other Western Stories Be Cool Pagan Babies Tishomingo Blues