10,022. But with those who were in debt, that further credit would have the effect of leaving them much more in debt than they were before?-Of course; very much more.
10,023. Is that now in the course of being paid off?-Yes; it is coming back to us very fast, in consequence of more successful fishings and better crops.
10,024. Do you not consider that the necessity under which you lay of importing the meal, and advancing it upon credit to the fishermen, was the result of the system, which has been prevailing here, of long settlements, and the undue amount of credit which has been allowed to the men?-I have here a letter which I wrote in 1860, and which represents my views on that subject, and I may as well read an extract from it "If we don"t give unlimited advances, we are told the fishermen will be taken from us. I have now been nearly twelve months in this place (that was after I came first to Uyea), and have closely watched the system pursued by proprietors and others, and certainly agree with you that it is it bad one; but I know I have no right to make any remarks or trouble you with my views on that subject, further than to state that I cannot see any good that will result from burdening the tenants with debt to the fish-curers. It has been my desire, ever since I knew anything about Shetland tenantry, to see them raised in the social scale, and made thoroughly independent, both of proprietors, fish-curers, and others, and I have felt deeply interested in the -- properties, no doubt from being more in contact with them; but when the poor among them are in terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by forced advances to different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more offered to any fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is not calculated to raise any tenant in self-respect."
10,025. You speak in that letter of "forced advances:" what were these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor"s ground officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only 2 or 3 to get, and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent.
That looked very like forced advances.
10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes.
10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe that 13 years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does now.
10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor"s ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him from the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him from a fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that purpose, to some other fish-curer who would do so.
10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time when I was at Uyea Sound as a fish-curer trying to engage any men who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt, because I found that many of them required more from the shop than their fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after rent, until I saw that I was advancing to my own ruin.
10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one.
10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord, or by his factor?- It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the money.
10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord or any one representing him?-No.
10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of the men being taken away sometimes.
10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and although they were in your debt?-Yes.
10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no arrangement.
10,036. Why did you not try to secure your debt by arrestment?- Because the proprietor"s right of hypothec would cover the man"s whole effects.
10,037. But you might have arrested the money in the hands of the new employer?-He might probably have advanced more than the man might catch in the season before he commenced; so that there was nothing to arrest.
10,038. Did you never try to secure your debt in that way?-I have tried it, but have been unsuccessful.
10,039. Have you, within the last 12 years, met with cases of that sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay his rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking me for money, and I told them I could not advance them any further.
They would then go away, and come back and tell me that the proprietor"s agent or ground officer had informed them that they must get their rent, and that must pay it; and that if I did not do that, they would not be allowed to fish for me.
10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed princ.i.p.ally under the ground officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst.
10,041. You did not find that system in existence on other estates?-I only came in contact with the tenants on that property.
10,042. Did no other tenants fish for you up till 1868?-No; except Lord Zetland"s.
10,043. Have you been obliged in that way to pay rents for Lord Zetland"s tenants also?-No, not for Lord Zetland"s.
10,044. Only for the late Mrs. Mouat"s?-Yes.
10,045. Did that practice cease when the estates pa.s.sed to Major Cameron?-They only pa.s.sed to him at her death last year.
10,046. That was after you had got your lease of the estates?- Yes.
10,047. And since you have had the lease, of course, your control over the tenants has been direct?-Yes.
10,048. And no forced advance of that kind could be required?- No; but, of course whatever the tenant might earn at the fishing, we had still to pay his rent. That was one advance we could not get clear of. The rent was due, and we were responsible for it to the proprietor. The great drawback in the trade is the debts, and the advances given that are never repaid.
10,049. Is it not in your own power to stop your advances whenever you think the debtor is unable to pay more?-No doubt; but suppose a family in the month of January who have no food in the house: there are eight children and a wife, and an aged mother, perhaps, we stop giving them supplies of meal, you can easily guess the consequences.
10,050. If you were to stop their supplies, might they not obtain them by having recourse to some other merchant or fish-curer?- Yes; but it would be upon the same principle-upon credit again.
10,051. And you would lose your debt?-We would lose our debt, and credit, and everything.
10,052. How would you provide for the transition from that state of things to a system in which the payments would be monthly?- I think it would take greater penetration and wisdom than I can boast of, to solve such a ticklish point of political economy. I am afraid pauperism would first increase.
10,053. But would it not be better for the men in the long run?-I don"t think it would be any better for the man who has plenty of money now, and a good many of them have that. Such a man comes and buys from us if he wants; and if he does not want, he goes where he likes. If he has got a cow to sell, and we can give him as good a price as another, he will perhaps sell to but he is quite his own master as to where he will [Page 244] sell. But a man with a very small amount of stock, and no credit, and no cash, and no crop after February, would be in a very difficult position until the month of June, when he began to fish.
10,054. Can men during these eight months not get some sort of wages for labour?-The only kind of work in Unst is at the chromate ore quarries; but they can only employ a very limited number of men compared with the population, and those who work in the quarries in winter generally work in summer also.
Their men are usually employed for the whole year and there is no room for the fishermen to be employed there.
10,055. Have you any interest in these chromate quarries?-No.
10,056. Is it not your opinion, from the facts you have stated, that the population of the island is rather greater than it is able to maintain?-I think that if the inhabitants of the island were to work the ground they have, they could take food enough out of Unst to feed the 2800 or 3000 inhabitants that are in it.
10,057. Would it not be one effect of the improvements which are being carried out under the management of your firm, to enable the parties to tide over the transition period between the present credit system and the cash system?-Perhaps I may be too sanguine; but my hope is, that if we succeed in carrying through the improvements which have been begun, in six years" time every tenant on the island will be independent of every man, and then he may make his bargain as he likes.
10,058. Do you calculate that it will take six years to wipe out existing debts?-Yes; and that will require renewed exertion on the part of every man. I don"t think the idleness of the winter will do it; I think we all want a stimulus.
10,059. Does it not occur to you that this want of energy arises in a great degree from the feeling which the people have, that at the worst they will get credit from the merchant?-There is no doubt that has a very bad effect upon them.
10,060. So that the removal of that sense of dependence might be the very stimulus you desiderate?-It might.
10,061. And your own system of monthly payments would probably be the very best way to apply that stimulus?-I believe it would; and I believe that with average years of fishing, if we could employ the population for six months in winter at profitable wages, we might get into the money system more easily.
10,062. In what way would you suggest employing them for six months at profitable wages?-I don"t know; I am afraid the winter fishing cannot be improved.
10,063. And there is no other kind of employment in which wages can be given?-No; unless Government would improve the fishing harbours-that would be a very good way or by giving us more roads. This system, which has obtained so long in Shetland, seems to be natural to the soil; for when the roads were made, the whole of them, except the one in Unst, were made under the superintendence of a captain of the Navy and a captain of the Royal Engineers; and we could not do without credit-I suppose you would call it truck-although the cash was being paid every month. We had to appoint a contractor in every district to supply the workers with meal, and the officer in charge of the roads granted checks to the men.
10,064. Was not that done in consequence of the absence of shops in the district?-No; they had to go to the shop in the district and get the meal. In every district where the works were being carried on we had a contractor engaged to supply meal to the workers.
10,065. Do you mean a man keeping a shop?-We selected a man in the district, and the officer in charge pa.s.sed orders on him for meal to A, B, or C, and he deducted that from their wages every month, and paid them the balance in cash.
10,066. How long is it since these roads were made?-In 1849 and 1850. It was after the failure of the potatoes in 1847.
10,067. Were the funds for making these roads obtained from Government?-No; Government only gave the superintendence of a staff of sappers and miners.
10,068. Was the work done by local a.s.sessment?-No; the money was raised for relieving the dest.i.tution in Shetland by the Edinburgh Board, of which Mr Skene was secretary.
10,069. Then that was really an enterprise undertaken for the relief of a temporary dest.i.tution?-Yes.
10,070. And the meal was distributed by way of relieving pressing want?-Yes.