15,918. The seamen, however, could go to any other shop in town for their supplies if they chose?-At present they could, but I have no doubt they would offend the agent by doing so. If they repudiated his right to secure his own account, that would put an end to the thing, because the main inducement for the agents to act as they do is that they have the supplying of the men with goods.
15,919. Have you anything else to say?-Nothing.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.
15,920. You formerly gave evidence before the Commissioners under the Act of 1870, in Edinburgh?-I did.
15,921. Are there any points on which you wish to give further information?-I merely wish to reaffirm all that I previously stated. From what the people say, the only thing that seems to require explanation, is with regard to the value of the worsted or wool for the making of a shawl.
15,922. You refer to question 44,290: "I know for a fact that the worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s. They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.; and they get from 25s. to 30s.
for it?"-Yes. The question was intended to apply to half square shawls and haps selling at from 1 to 30s., according to the verdancy of the animal that was buying it. It takes about sixteen hundreds to make a hap, and the worsted will be worth. from 2d.
to 21/2d. It will take from sixteen to seventeen hundreds to make a half square fine shawl, and the worsted of it will be worth about 4d.; and these shawls are sold at from 18s. to 30s., according as customers can be got for them.
15,923. Are haps often sold at so high a price as 30s?-No, not haps; they are sold up to about 1. That has been my experience.
I may say that I have been in shops, when the first question asked before a price was stated was, whether the article was for the person"s self or for a stranger; that is to say, was it to be sold to a person in the country, or was it to go away outside, because in these cases they have two different prices. I have likewise been in shops when, if there were any of the knitting girls there selling shawls or other articles, the merchant would take very good care to state the price to his other customers in the lowest possible voice, and at the farthest possible distance from these girls; and I have been repeatedly told that they will occasionally put the price upon a piece of paper, so as not to let the knitters hear it. That I say in contradiction to the a.s.sertion which is made, that the merchants sell the hosiery articles at the same price as that at which they nominally buy them. Again, I want to point out that in most cases all the worsted that the hosiery merchants in Lerwick dealt in up to the last year was bought from the country merchants for goods, and therefore that even that nominal value did not represent the true value of the articles. I produce an account containing transactions amounting to 146; it is all balanced by goods, which were entirely worsted, up to 1, 3s. 10d. The only item of cash I find in the account is 15s. Lately, however, they have been obliged and are ready to buy the worsted for cash, because they cannot do without it, and the supply of worsted is decreasing.
15,924. You are speaking of Shetland worsted?-Yes. I may mention also that that estimate of the value of the worsted for a shawl was intended by me to embrace the Yorkshire worsted, or what they call the Pyrenees, although I don"t suppose either the worsted or the wool ever saw the Pyrenees: it is made in Yorkshire.
15,925. Are you speaking, in both these cases of haps and of shawls, of articles made of Shetland worsted?-All the haps are made from Shetland worsted, the coa.r.s.er worsted.
15,926. You said in that answer to which you have referred, "They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.:" is not that a little too strong?-I don"t think it.
15,927. That a.s.sumes that the charge for the goods is about 100 per cent. above the cost price, or rather it a.s.sumes that it is 100 per cent. above the price at which the worker of the shawl ought to get these goods, which would not be the cost price, but the retail price?-No, I don"t mean that. I mean to say that if these merchants were to go to the proper market, they could buy their goods at such a rate that they would be able to sell them at 100 per cent. profit; but I know that a great many of these merchants go to second-hand houses to buy. Whether it is for the object of getting long credits, or what it is, I don"t know; but I know from the parties who come here that a great many of them are not first-cla.s.s houses.
15,928. Have you any personal knowledge as to the wholesale houses with which these merchants deal for their goods?-Do you mean, do I know who comes down here?
15,929. Yes?-Yes, I do.
15,930. From what source is your knowledge derived?-From their travellers, and from seeing their goods coming down.
15,931. You are acquainted with the travellers of those houses?- Most a.s.suredly.
15,932. And you know that they are not wholesale houses in the strict sense of the term, but middle-men?-Exactly. I say that the merchants here could go to much better quarters for their goods if they were to put their business on a proper footing. Wholesale houses in Aberdeen are not in the same position as wholesale houses in London.
15,933. Do London houses send travellers here?-No; but if the merchants" business was on a proper foundation they could get introductions to these houses, and do their business at a better rate.
15,934. Is there any other point on which you wish to make an addition or explanation upon your former evidence?-It has been generally remarked by fishcurers, that one reason why they could not give up the present system of dealing with their men was because the men would not have the means of getting boats and fittings for the fishing, whilst at the same time the princ.i.p.al fish-curers a.s.sert that they do pay enormous sums of money to the men. For instance, I have seen from the papers that it has been stated by Messrs. Hay & Co. that in the island of Whalsay alone they paid 1300 last year, whilst the total value of the boats and fishing gear there cannot be over 400. Therefore it is absurd to say that the men would not be able to supply themselves with boats. Again, it has been stated and maintained that the Shetland men as a race are intelligent, and in one sense they are. Indeed their intelligence is so acute that the employers are ashamed, as I have no doubt you have found in the evidence, to give them accounts. They are rather afraid that their acuteness would discover too much in them, but in addition to that they tell you it would be impossible for the men to divide the produce of the fishing among themselves if it was paid in cash at the station, because it would require a man conversant with accounts; so that it is an absurdity to say that they are an intelligent race, and yet cannot adjust the proportions which would go to the different men in a boat"s crew if they were paid in cash.
15,935. Probably they would be sufficiently acute to adjust their accounts if they were accustomed to do so like other people in other parts of the world?-I say they are quite capable of doing that. They are quite capable of looking after their own accounts if these were [Page 403] produced to them. There is another thing I should like to point out with regard to the agriculture of Shetland as compared with that of other places. I am sorry I have come away without the statistics, but if you look into them you will find that we have a much larger number of stock in Shetland with a rental of only 30,000, than Orkney with a rental of 60,000, from which I deduce that it is a far greater object to the merchants and proprietors here to continue the people as fishers upon the present system, than to put the land upon a legitimate and proper footing.
15,936. In what way do you arrive at that inference?-The land is under-rented for the purpose of binding the men to continue as fishermen for their employers. A great deal of the land is in outsets, and these outsets were originally set at the mere interest upon the house that was built, or upon any enclosures that were made. That was done for the purpose of procuring extra fishermen, and the system has been continued to this day. By looking at the valuation roll, you would find an immense difference between the rents of merks land and the rents of outsets.
15,937. I don"t suppose that any proprietor who employs his men in fishing would deny that if he ceased to do so the rents of his tenants must be raised?-I rather think they do deny that.
15,938. I have had admissions made to that effect in the evidence which has been given before me?-I have heard none of the evidence that has been taken; but I am glad to hear that they are thinking of turning over a new leaf, and admitting even that they are wrong.
15,939. I don"t say it has been a general admission, but that admission has been made by one proprietor at least?-I say that it ought to be a general admission. Another thing I would mention is, that the people with their present beliefs are unfortunately too subservient to come forward and frankly give full evidence upon the matter, and I would give an instance of the sub-serviency and illiterateness that prevails among them. I received the other day a report from two men, in which they use such language as "resources of science and art," and one of them was styled the superintendent, and the other the manager, of the working department of the largest establishment in this place for the manufacture of blubber. One of these men could hardly sign his own name, while the other had to sign with cross. That fact I mention in order to show that these men are under the belief that they are bound to do in most cases as their superiors may dictate to them.
15,940. Has it come within your knowledge that many people have been afraid to come forward and give evidence before this Commission?-Yes; a great many people have told me they would not do it.
15,941. Do you refer to fishermen?-To fishermen and to females too. I may mention also that I have been instrumental in starting a large company here upon the limited liability principle, the first object of which is stated to be to afford to the people of Shetland an opportunity of prosecuting their fishings free from the truck system.
15,942. Is that a company for prosecuting the Faroe fishing or the ling fishing?-It is to be for all. It is to commence this year with the Faroe fishing.
15,943. Did you send out any vessels in 1871?-No, we did not begin in 1871, except with a single vessel in which I was interested, and which we sent out to see what we could do with it.
15,944. Did that vessel belong to the company?-No, not to this company. The company has been formed in Glasgow, of gentlemen who are desirous of putting down this iniquitous system.
15,945. Do you propose to carry on the fishing without any shop?-Yes.
15,946. And to pay all in cash?-Yes.
15,947. Do you propose to pay by annual settlements?-The men still prefer going upon the old system of payments; but in order to provide for their outfit, as they call it, we propose to pay it in cash the moment the vessel leaves the harbour with them on board, and we intend to afford to their families an advance of what is fair and reasonable to keep them while the men are away. We are quite prepared to run all that risk against a bad fishing, and we will pay them the balance in cash at any moment they choose after they come home.
15,948. Are the advances you are to make to be in cash also?- Yes; they are to be in cash, not in goods.
15,949. Do you think it will be possible for the fishing business to be conducted, perhaps not immediately, but shortly after this, without the fishermen requiring advances either in cash or goods?-Certainly; and I say that if that system could be adopted now it could be carried on, looking to the amount of money that has been acc.u.mulated on deposit by the people in the country generally.
15,950. Then why do you propose in your enterprise to make advances in cash?-Just to suit the humour of the people, until they come to see for themselves that such advances are not necessary.
15,951. I suppose you want to begin cautiously?-We do, and to work them into the system gradually. In fact we wish them eventually to take shares in these vessels, and to get vessels and boats for themselves.
15,952. But in the arrangement you propose, so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned, the men will be sharesmen?-They are sharesmen in the produce, but they have no shares in the vessel; but I propose that they should eventually have an interest in the vessel, and we are quite willing to give them an interest in any vessel they choose. We are also desirous to get better boats for them in the ling fishing. It has been stated likewise that the people could not get their supplies at the stations if there was a cash system, as there would not be shops there, because the whole amount that is sold at the stations in the course of a year is merely nominal; and to show that, it is mentioned that it is usually an ordinary splitter who attends to the shop, or the fish factor. That man is not in the shop any time during the rest of the year, and it is said that there is only a very limited amount of goods sent there, being intended only for the supply of the men when they go out to sea. If that is the case, it would be no great hardship if these goods were not there, but I say that they would be there.
15,953. Do you think the men could easily take their own supplies with them?-Quite easily; and wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered. If there is money to be got there, you will be sure to find shops there too.
15,954. In what way were the men paid who went to the Faroe fishing in your vessel last year?-They were paid by shares the same as they had hitherto been, and this [producing it] is a copy of their settlement. The name of the vessel is the "Lily of the Valley."
15,955. I see that this account of the settlement is drawn up in the form which is ordinarily used in Shetland?-I don"t know, but I suppose it is.
15,956. It shows the amount of fish caught, and then the deductions, and finally the division?-Yes.
15,957. I see no deduction for commission?-There is no commision.
15,958. That is usually, but not universally, taken by the owner?- I don"t know why it should be. I think it is hardly fair if the men are doing their duty that the owner should not do his also, and take the fish to the best market.
15,959. You think the owner should be considered to be paid for that by his share of the produce?-I think so. I also produce a copy of our account for the expense of salt and curing.
15,960. Does this show the actual expenditure incurred by you in curing the fish brought in by the vessel?-Yes.
15,961. Was it arranged with the men that they should be charged only the actual expense incurred for salt and curing, and not an estimate according to the usual system?-Yes.
15,962. Is it not usual in Shetland that the expense of curing is deducted according to an estimate of 47s. 6d. and 50s., or 52s. 6d., as the case may be?-No; I understand it is the cost that is charged. The agreement [Page 404] with our men was that they were to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, salt, etc., and master"s premium 10s. per ton, and mate"s premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and that they should receive 8 lbs. weight of bread per man per week, and also 9d. per score to each man for all the fish caught by him, one half to be paid by the owners, and the other half by the crew.
15,963. What was the return to the owners upon their share of that vessel last year?-22 per cent.
15,964. The total share payable to each man is shown in the account you have produced?-Yes. Their half share amounted to 188, 9s. 6d., but then they had wages in the succeeding voyage as specified in the agreement.