16,714. Do you think it would be practicable to settle the accounts at these shops at shorter intervals than at the end of the season?-I think if it could possibly be done, it would be an advantage to both parties; but there is a difficulty in the way, owing to many of the men being in such a poor position.
16,715. Is there not a difficulty in the men in the Lewis and at Barra being so far from their homes, and so distant from banks?- No. The men at Barra, who fish for five or six or seven weeks, return to the east coast when their fishing is done, and they are paid immediately for their fish. They get what money they require there to pay each other, and when they come home they are all settled with and paid off, so that they get their money immediately.
16,716. Therefore there would be no advantage in paying them on delivery of their fish?-None whatever. If they are paid at once at the end of the fishing, it is all they need.
16,717. At the Lewis would there not be an advantage in paying the resident men week by week, so that they could have money with which to supply themselves?-If that system were practicable it might be an advantage.
16,718. But even there in your business the settlement takes place within two or three months?-Yes. In many [Page 429] cases it takes place immediately after the fishing is over.
16,719. And the fishing season, I understand, lasts from May to the end of June?-Yes; or the beginning of July. It lasts for eight weeks.
16,720. Why is it not practicable to pay the men more frequently?-On account of the circ.u.mstances the men are in; and besides, a good many of them I know have great objections to being paid by the price of the day. They always wish to be engaged at a price to be paid at the end of the season.
They are afraid of the price rising and falling. One day it may be high, and the next day it may be very low; so that they prefer a stated price during the whole season, and then they are settled.
16,721. Could you not fix that stated price at the beginning of the season?-Not if we were to pay by the price of the day. If the system pursued in Fife could be got to work in these northern and western places, it would be a decided advantage to the fishermen themselves if they agreed to it.
16,722. Have you tried them?-I have often spoken to the fishermen about that. I have been round there agreeing and settling with the boats, and I have often mentioned the subject, but they have always said that such a thing would not work there at all.
16,723. Do you know the system of settlement in Shetland with the cod and ling fishermen?-Not from my own knowledge.
16,724. The men there are engaged early in the spring, or even as early as Martinmas, to fish for the following season. Some of them are bound to do so without any agreement; but the understanding is, that they are to get the current price at the end of the season,-the season being from May until about 12th August for the cod and ling fishing,-and the settlement does not take place until November or December, and even later?-The reason for that is, that in Shetland after the fishing is over it takes two or three months until the fish are cured, so that they cannot state a price to the men in Shetland until after the curing has been completed.
16,725. Are not the sales made in September or October?-Yes; and they then arrange what the price is to be.
16,726. But you say that the delay in settling there for the cod and ling fishing arises from the way in which the current price is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes; it is merely because the fish cannot be cured within a month or so.
16,727. And you cannot sell them and ascertain the price until they are cured?-That is the usual way in which they do. They ascertain the price at the end of the season when the fish are cured, and they settle with the fishermen accordingly.
16,728. From your experience of fishermen in different parts of Scotland, do you think they are likely to be more prosperous when they are paid by the price of the day than when they are paid upon long settlements?-I think it would be a great advantage to themselves, and also to the fish-curer, if they were to be paid by the price of the day.
16,729. Why would it be an advantage to the fishermen?- Because they would get simply what is due to them, and the fish-curer would not run any risk from the men getting into debt.
Along the Fifeshire coast the fishermen are not in debt to the fish-curers, simply because they get a price per cran per day, and don"t require any advances. In the northern districts, on the contrary, owing to the number of fishermen always getting new boats and materials, they require advances to fit them out; and the system of paying by the price of the day not being in force there, they generally get heavily into debt, and many of them never come out of it.
16,730. Is it the case that on the coast of Fife, and in the eastern district of Banff, the fishermen are not in debt to the curers at all?-Yes; they are usually a better cla.s.s of fishermen altogether on the Fife and Buckie coasts.
16,731. On the east coast do the men get supplies of lines and boats from the fish-curers?-Very seldom. They are all in a pretty good position; and two or three of them can take a boat between them, and fish by the price of the day, so that they always know what they are to have by the end of the week. They are all paid once a week, or even oftener, and they scarcely ever get into debt.
16,732. In Fifeshire, however, they have a fresh market to a considerable extent?-Yes.
16,733. Is it not owing to that that the system of frequent payments has come into force there?-That may be the reason partly. There are always a good many English buyers among the fishermen there, and the men would not trust them, as it were, for more than a day or two, because they are not thoroughly acquainted with them; but in the case of fish-curers who are well known to the men, they never think about settling until the end of the season.
16,734. Is that the case even in Fifeshire?-Yes; but in some cases with the local curers in Fife, the boats agree by a price per cran.
16,735. Is there a large proportion of the boats so agreed?-Not now. At Stonehaven, about one half of the boats fishing there are agreed for the whole fishing. The others are engaged, as it were, by the price of the day.
16,736. Do these boats get an equal price for their green fish with those who sell them on the nail?-Sometimes, if a heavy fishing comes in, the men will only get a few shillings per cran for them; and it is that uncertainty with regard to the price which they may get that makes a great many of the northern fishermen agree by a stated price throughout it whole season.
16,737. Do these men who agree in that way get supplies or advances throughout the course of the season?-They usually do if they require them.
16,738. Are these advances made in money or in goods?-In both.
16,739. How do they get them in goods? Have the curers not shops from which they supply them?-The curers have not got shops, but they will give them an order. They become security to the merchants, and give the men an order for what they may want, the curer becoming responsible for it.
16,740. Where cod and ling are sold to a curer in Shetland, for instance, is there any reason why they should not be paid in cash on the nail according to the price of the day? a.s.suming always that the fishermen are willing to agree to that, is there any reason in the nature of the business why that system should not be followed there?-The nature of the business is such that the fish-curers themselves cannot ascertain what price to give to the fishermen until the end of the season, and the fishermen and the fish-curers usually agree together that they are to get the current price, that is the price which the fish-curer can afford to give them at the end of the season, when he has once ascertained what it is.
16,741. In that way the fishermen take part of the risk of the market?-Yes.
16,742. Is there any reason why the fishermen should not take that risk, and be paid according to the market price of the day when he delivers his fish?-None whatever. They could get a stated price for every fish they catch.
16,743. And that price might be higher or it might be lower?-It might be; or they could agree to fish for so many weeks at a certain price per fish overhead.
16,744. They might agree at the commencement of the season to fish for a stated price, or they might allow it to fluctuate from week to week?-They might do either; or they might agree to be settled with at the end of their six weeks" fishing, in a similar manner to what they do at the herring fishing, when they settle with the men immediately upon the fishing being done.
16,745. Is there any reason why they should not actually receive payment for their fish weekly or fortnightly, even in remote places like Shetland where the distances are great?-There is no great reason why they should not have an agreement of that sort because it is [Page 430] practicable even in the West Highlands, and round the Caithness and Buckie coasts.
16,746. Have you to do so in many cases?-We have. This season there has been an extraordinarily large cod fishing, and the boats are agreed at 1s. to 1s. 3d. for cash, with a few pounds of bounty to the fishermen. There are perhaps 8 or 10 curers in each place, and each of them has perhaps 10 or 12 boats fishing to him. These fishermen put in all their fish to their various curers, and they are paid as soon as the fishing is done. They agree from December until the middle or the end of March,-20th March is the date this year,-and upon that date they get settled as soon as the fishing is finished, and if they require any money during the fishing they get it to account.
16,747. Then the price is fixed at the beginning of the season?-It is fixed before the men go to sea.
16,748. And the settlement takes place at the end of the season?- Yes; and the men get any money to account which they require, in order to carry them through the season. That applies to Stornoway and Gairloch, and all round the Caithness and Sutherland coasts, and also to the Fifeshire and Buckie district for this very season.
These crews are made up of the local men, natives; they have usually 6 or 7 men in a boat, and they share and share alike.
16,749. I suppose they do require to have part of the price of their fish advanced to them during winter, and before the general settlement at the end of the season?-Some of them would, but others would not.
16,750. Do you know whether these fishermen have farms of their own?-No; the fishermen on the east coast have no farms. They live in fishing villages, like the village of Newhaven; but in Gairloch and in Stornoway they usually have little crofts.
16,751. Even with these men would it not be an advantage to settle fortnightly? Would there be any practical difficulty in doing so if the men wished it?-No; if they liked to take the risk.
16,752. Would there be any risk?-There would be no risk if the price was fixed at the commencement of the season; but if they were to fish by the price of the day the men would not like it, because in the case of a great fishing the price comes down almost to nothing, and they are always afraid of that.
16,753. When a great quant.i.ty of fish is taken the price falls immediately, and that you say is the reason why they don"t want to fish at the price of the day?-Yes; they want a stated price, so that they may know what they are to get, whether the fish are many or few.
16,754. On the other hand, they would have an advantage if they got a larger price when there was a small fishing?-Yes; but they won"t take that risk. I have often spoken to the fishermen of these districts, especially in Buckie, about that, and suggested that they should take the price of the day, but they always liked to have their agreement with the bounty.
16,755. The bounty, I suppose, is intended to carry their families through part of the season?-No; the bounty is an old custom. It was granted by the Government to the fishermen round about Shetland and in that quarter. A great many boats went there from the south coast, and there usually was a bounty granted to them, I think about 200 years ago; but that system ceased then, and the fish-curers commenced to cure.
16,756. Were they asked to continue the bounty?-Not to continue it; but it was only during the last ten years round the Banffshire coast that the practice was continued. In that district there was a scarcity of boats, and the fish-curers got so numerous that they gave a bounty of from 5, 10, 15, and up to 30, or even 40, to any crew who would agree to them.
16,757. Was that given as a kind of earnest?-Yes.
16,758. I suppose all the fish delivered are entered by the agent or factor of the curer in a fish-book at the time of delivery?-Yes; they are all tallied and extended by him.
16,759. Would it interfere with the business much for that man to pay for the fish as he received them?-He could do it once a week with ease. We could do it with reference to the haddock fishing all round from the Wick coast into the Cromarty Firth, and round by Fraserburgh. There are a great many parties fishing haddocks there during the winter and spring, and we pay them weekly.
They are engaged by a price of so much per cwt., fixed at the commencement of the season.
16,760. Is that an extensive fishery?-It is pretty extensive. In some years it is very successful. This year it has not been so successful; but that is the nature of it. So soon as the fishermen have ceased fishing for herring, the east coast crews go to the west coast about 1st May, and return about the end of June or 1st July.
They commence to fish upon the east coast about the 1st of July, and continue until 10th September. They then cease for perhaps two or three weeks, when they commence to fish haddocks until the month of December. They have then the cod fishing; and it continues with cod, halibut, and all fresh fish, until the middle of March, and from the middle of March until the 1st of May, there is comparatively nothing done. There is no engagement during that time.