4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In many cases the seamen don"t get any of these allotment notes at all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland.
4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these advance notes to his family.
4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case.
4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship"s agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty.
4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?- No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it.
4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your firm?-Yes.
4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose.
4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain between you and the shipowners?-Yes.
4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will not increase it.
4054. However, the princ.i.p.al thing you wish to state upon that point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead.
4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer period for signing the release?-Yes.
4056. These regulations provide-"(1.) The agreement shall be entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the allotments to be paid during the ship"s absence; there shall also be a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for each of the men, in which, on the ship"s return, he shall show the wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to which they are respectively ent.i.tled; the account to be signed by himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy.
At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master"?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that regulation about settling with the men when they are landed, because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.
4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?- Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months.
4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?- They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual amount paid to the men in cash.
4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by you in goods?-Yes.
4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them to come back; but I don"t think that, in any case, we have given them any credit.
4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may have been given under monthly allotment notes.
4062. What you mean is that the 1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have given in.
4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that "the supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to the men"s families to account of their half pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants" wages"?-When a half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal, and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them.
4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them goods to account.
4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of the money in full when it is due. The second column in the abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and the actual money.
4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?- Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us.
4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman, when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note.
4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship"s agent himself?-Not that I know of.
4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to pay to the ship"s agent himself?-That could only have had the effect of reserving the agent"s claim against the shipowner.
4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation [Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been aware of them.
4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade goes on to say-"The superintendent is not to allow any deduction to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by tradesmen to the seaman"s family during the seaman"s absence, nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place before the commencement of the voyage." I suppose that refers to the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided for in the agreement.
4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies have been made on allotment notes.
4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are supplies made by the agent to the seaman"s family, and they are deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his wages.
4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he paid in money?-The man"s family can get them either in money or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait until the end of the month to receive her 1, 2s. 6d. she may want a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance.
4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the 1, 2s.
6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men don"t require to take them; it is only the married men who require them.
4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of them have been given on allotment notes.
4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in that way as possible.
4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment notes.
4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements.
If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away, it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay it after the settlement at the custom-house.
4080. Then, this total of 10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it.
4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that, but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them.
4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are ent.i.tled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that so?-Yes; and the first month"s advance, and any advances the men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage.
4083. Does the 270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I shall send for the book, and it will explain it better.
4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?- Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of settling with the men myself.
4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the transactions?-Yes.
4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state that sum of 1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I can state just now is, that out of an average of 11, 13s. 6d., which each man was ent.i.tled to receive each year over a period of three years, we only paid them 1, 7s. 2d. in goods
4087. But you cannot state that that 1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man"s account, and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes.
4088. And you cannot state that the sum of 10, 6s. 4d. was the sum which actually pa.s.sed in cash at the settlement before the superintendent?-It is the actual sum which pa.s.sed into the men"s hands in cash.
4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which pa.s.sed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in payment for supplies?-I don"t know about that, because I have not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that 10, 6s.
4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of 11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them.
4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say.
4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think everything has been referred to.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined.