I could not even say that he has done that, but I think there was some understanding of that sort.
13,686. In that letter of December 1869 to Williamson, Mr. Leask refers to Johnston as having fulfilled the stipulation on that point which Williamson had failed to do. I suppose you have no reason to doubt that that statement is correct?-None; only I was not aware of it. I did not pay any attention to that part of the letter.
13,687. Is it the practice for Mr. Leask to pay to the proprietors the rents of a number of fishermen who have accounts with him?- No; he pays no rents for the men whatever.
13,688. That practice does not exist in connection with the Faroe fishermen?-No. It is only in the home fishing, so far as I know, that that is done.
13,689. Are the rents of any of the men employed in the Faroe fishing by Mr. Leask paid through him to the proprietors?-If an individual gave an order on Mr. Leask in favour of the proprietor, of course it would be paid if the fisherman had funds in Mr.
Leask"s hands to meet it.
13,690. But not otherwise?-Not otherwise. No guarantee is given.
13,691 Are such orders frequently given?-Frequently; at least they are not uncommon.
13,692. A fisherman sometimes, at or before settlement, gives an order on the shipowner in favour of the proprietor?-Yes.
13,693. And you may perhaps have a number of such orders from the tenants of a particular proprietor?-We have some, but very few.
13,694. When a number of such rents are payable to single proprietor, do you give him one cheque for the whole?-I don"t remember any order of that kind being given, except one.
[Page 341]
13,695. I believe you wish to make some additional statement with regard to the Greenland whale fishery?-Yes. With your permission I would again refer shortly to Mr. Hamilton"s report, in case there is anything in it which I left uncorrected when I was previously examined. I think I showed last day that crews have been discharged within about one month or less from the date of their being landed; and I referred to the crew of the "Esquimaux"
in May 1870, and to the crew of the "Polynia" from Davis Straits in November 1871. The former crew contained the latter, I think, 19 men, who were discharged within less than a month.
13,696. Have you known any other cases in which the crews were discharged as rapidly?-I refer to the shipping master of the port for other cases. I have no doubt there are plenty more.
13,697. Are there any others within your own knowledge?-I don"t remember any, but I have no doubt there are others. I admitted that in some cases seamen have taken an unreasonable length of time before coming to be discharged; but I explained that that was not the fault of the agents, but of the men themselves.
Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised form prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don"t believe it.
13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.
13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.
13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of the families?-Yes.
13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes; but I don"t consider that to be truck at all.
13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the value of the man"s fish being taken out supplies of goods, and the balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.
13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.
13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people in Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.
13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but goods?-That is their own fault.
13,706. Still it may be the fact although it is their own fault?-It may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I don"t think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.
13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about the meaning of the word truck than as to the actual state of matters in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don"t think there is any room for complaint about the state of matters in Shetland, as a rule.
13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain advantage by getting advances of goods?-Of course they have.
13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such advances when they require them?-Of course I don"t deny that; but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good thing in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather short.
13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize them until then. None of the fish-curers get one penny for their fish until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very small parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.
13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a better position?-Yes.
13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is selling his b.u.t.ter and milk and cattle.
13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.
13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes; but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance in the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to whom he sells his fish.
13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.
13,716. Is it not possible for a fish-curer beginning business on a small scale, to carry on his business without any capital at all, or almost without capital?-If he gets a.s.sistance he may, but it is not possible to do it without a.s.sistance. No one can carry on business to any extent without capital.
13,717. But he requires only a limited capital, does he not?-He requires a good deal of capital, but it depends entirely upon the extent of his business.
13,718. He has no wages to pay until about the time when he realizes the sales for the year?-But he has goods to supply or money to advance.
13,719. But he may have a certain amount of goods which may be got at three or six months" credit, according to arrangement?- Yes.
13,720. For instance, Mr. Thomas Williamson, at Seafield, does not pay for his goods, I presume, until his fish are sold to Mr.
Leask?-That is an exceptional case. If Mr. Leask or Mr. Adie, or any other person, chooses to accommodate such a person as Mr.
Williamson, they may do so; but that is not the rule, by any means.
13,721. It is an exceptional case in this respect, that the fish-curer there has a very small capital, and that he has obtained goods on credit?-Yes.
13,722. Still it ill.u.s.trates the possibility of doing these things under the system which prevails?-Yes, I may mention that the merchants in Lerwick are not so hard as merchants in the south, in requiring that money must be paid at the end of three or four months. A merchant in Lerwick may allow his account to run on for twelve months, because that is the custom of the country.
13,723. Is that the only other point in Mr. Hamilton"s report which you wish to refer to?-No. I deny that almost every fisherman in the island is in debt, and that his wife and other members of his family are also in debt.
13,724. How do you know that?-I would refer you to the bank-books, particularly to those of the Union Bank, and also those of the Commercial and National Banks, and of the Post Office Savings Bank, and the Seamen"s Savings Bank.
13,725. Are these all the banks in Shetland?-Yes.
13,726. Are you aware that men who take advances in goods and cash from you as their employer frequently have considerable sums in bank?-Yes. I can point to a home fisherman, not a tenant of Mr. [Page 342] Leask"s, who has acc.u.mulated between 100 and 200 within the last few years.
13,727. Does he take large advances?-I don"t know what he takes; he does not deal with Mr. Leask at all. I can also point to a man in the Greenland trade, who within the last six years has saved up, I think, about 130 or 140.
13,728. Do these men obtain advances from their employers in the same way as other men?-Yes; they have accounts in the same way.
13,729. But they have a large balance at the end of the year; probably they don"t allow their accounts to exceed their earnings?-Quite so.
13,730. You don"t know about the debts which stand in the books of other merchants?-No.
13,731. So that you really cannot say to what extent fishermen are in debt to merchants other than Mr. Leask?-I cannot say to what extent they are in debt to other merchants; but I don"t believe they are in debt to any great extent. Part of them may be in debt to some extent, but not the majority. The debtors must be a minority among the men.