13,779. It is quite a different question whether the agent acts as his interest dictates, but still it is to his interest in such a case to delay the settlement for some time?-I admit that it may be to his interest to retain the money, but I deny that he delays the settlement on that account.
13,780. He may have an interest to retain the money, and it may also happen that a certain amount of supplies is being taken out by the men before they are settled with?-It is very seldom that a man buys anything after he comes home.
13,781. But even although that has not occurred in your business, it is quite possible that in other businesses, or in the hands of an unscrupulous agent-I don"t suppose there are any such here,-the settlement may be protracted in order that the agent may retain the money in his hands, and be running up an account against the men at the same time?-I say that the shipping agents in Lerwick are all highly respectable men.
13,782. That is a.s.sumed in my question; but I am putting the case of another kind of men engaging in the business. I suppose you can conceive such a case?-Such a case is possible. Shetland is not exempt from bad men.
13,783. In such a case, might not the settlement be protracted for such reasons?-I don"t think it could, because, if the settlement is unduly protracted, the man has nothing to do but apply to the shipping master and complain.
13,784. Still that would require an application to the shipping master in order to get it put right?-Yes.
13,785. Do you deny this statement of Mr. Hamilton"s: "I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important, in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally but actually receive his [Page 344] wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes?"-That is common sense. There can be no doubt about that.
Then Mr. Hamilton says, "But while the men employed are not free agents,"-I deny that,-"however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wants to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour,"-I deny that,-"leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving." I deny that he has the opportunity of doing that.
13,786. You will observe that it is not alleged that any agent in Lerwick does so. All the allegation which Mr. Hamilton makes is that the opportunity exists?-I deny that there is such an opportunity, because Shetland men in general are very intelligent.
They are not at all what they have been represented to be. They are a very sharp, acute, intelligent lot of people, and they are perfectly able to take care, and do take very good care, to protect themselves, and to make sure that their accounts are just. I further think they are very provident, as can be proved by the amount of deposits in the banks. I don"t think they are an extravagant people at all. In my opinion they are a very careful, active, energetic, intelligent people, as a rule, much more so than will be found among the same cla.s.s of people in other parts of the United Kingdom.
13,787. Do you think it is a sign of independence and intelligence, and care in money matters, that fishermen and seamen should leave all these matters in the hands of merchants and landlords?- They don"t always do that.
13,788. In the majority of cases they pay their rents through their fish-merchant, and many of their accounts are paid by him?-That must be so, because they have no other means of doing it.
13,789. Most workmen in other parts of the country have their wages in their own hands every fortnight or every month, and can disburse them at their own pleasure; whereas in Shetland the universal practice is for the fisherman to run an account with the fish-merchant to whom he delivers his fish, and the fish-merchant transacts all his money matters for him. Do you think that is a proof of their intelligence and independence?-The man has merely a current account as he would have with a banker. He gets money, or anything he likes, if he wishes to pay an account. I suppose the fish-merchant, if he has money in his hands, would give it to him; but to settle with the fishermen every week or every fortnight is utterly impossible in Shetland.
13,790. Why?-Because the fishermen are in a sort of partnership with their employers. For instance, in the Faroe fishing it is a joint speculation betwixt the men and the owner. The men supply their time and labour, and the owner supplies the vessel and other things, and the men cannot get their share of the proceeds until the fish are dried and sold. It is quite impossible for the fish-merchant to settle with them every week or every fortnight unless they have been paid by wages. Of course, if they were paid by wages, the curer could settle at short intervals with the men, or with some one on their behalf when they were away.
13,791. Is it not the fact that in almost every case the fishermen depend for the accuracy of their accounts upon the fish-curer?- No, they all have a good check upon their accounts. They have them carefully read over, and every item criticised; and if they don"t remember exactly about a particular article, they will not settle for it until they do remember.
13,792. You are now speaking of the Faroe fishing and the Greenland fishing, of which you have had experience?-Yes.
13,793. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I should wish to refer to certain pa.s.sages in the previous evidence given before the Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,207 Mr. Smith is asked, "Is it a fact, that very little money pa.s.ses between the proprietor and the fishermen on these occasions?" [that is, at settlement], and he replies, "It is the fact." I say that it is not a fact, and I have proved already that the men do get money. At Ulsta the amount earned was 86, and the cash paid was 72.
13,794. Of course you are only speaking now of what comes under your own observation in Mr. Leask"s business?-That is all. Then in question 44,219 Mr. Smith is asked, "As a rule, are these fishermen in their debt?" and he replies, "I think very often they are." Now I say they are not in debt. The balances at the end of the year are generally in their favour. Then, in question 44,225, referring to the payment of the men employed at Greenland, Mr.
Smith is asked, "Are the wages handed over to the agents?" and he replies, "The fishermen have the right of insisting that their wages should be paid at the Custom House in terms of the articles, but that is very extensively evaded." I deny that.
13,795. Have attempts never been made to evade that rule about paying wages at the Custom House?-I don"t think so. There is no chance of evading it:
13,796. Do you say that no attempt has been made to make deductions other than those allowed by the statute at the time when the wages were paid at the Custom House?-I say that, during the first year or two, settlements were made in the Shipping Office of the agents" accounts as well as of the men"s accounts.
13,797 Was not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I cannot say as to that.
13,798. When is the last payment of oil-money made?-It is not always at the same time. Sometimes it is in November, and sometimes in December.
13,799. Where is it paid?-At one time it used to be made in the Shipping Office also, but now it is invariably in the agent"s office.
13,800. Is not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I don"t think so. It is an arrangement between the parties. Mr.
Smith further says, that what he calls the evasion of the Act is as much at the wish of the fishermen as at the wish of the proprietor.
That conveys the idea that the Greenland men are generally tenants of the agent, but I may say that in the "Camperdown" crew in 1865 only one man was tenant of Mr. Leask. In question 44,243 Mr.
Smith is asked, "Confining ourselves to the whalers, is there any reason why the settlement should be so long delayed?" and he replies, "I see none, except to save the merchants trouble." I deny that; and I say that it gives the merchants more labour and trouble to be going up to the Shipping Office so often.
13,801. In the following answer Mr. Smith says the fisherman has the power to insist on the settlement taking place at the Custom House if he chooses. Have you known any cases where they have insisted on that?-They don"t require to insist. So far as we are concerned, they never have to ask twice to be settled with.
13,802. Had you any applications from Shetland men before 1867 to have such settlements at the Custom House?-I cannot say that I remember any. The custom then was to pay the men as soon as we got the remittance from the owner, which was generally about a month after the ship landed her crew. No doubt, if a man had come before then wishing for settlement, we would have refused to settle with him if we had not got the remittance. That, however, was previous to 1867.
13,803. If a man insisted on getting payment and going to the Custom House then, what would have taken place?-The Custom House did not interfere then at all.
13,804. Then there was no case before 1867 or 1868 of a seaman asking you to go and settle in presence of the superintendent?- No.
13,805. And such settlements were never made presence of the superintendent?-No, except in 1854 and 1855, and I explained why we settled there then.
13,806. But from 1854 or 1855 down to the issuing [Page 344] of the notice in February 1868, there was no instance of the settlement being made before the superintendent?-None, to my knowledge.
13,807. The accounts during that time were settled invariably in the agent"s office, in the same way and on the same principle as fishermen"s accounts?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,247, Mr. Smith says he considers the system of barter to be hurtful to the independence of the people very much. I deny that the people are not independent. I consider them to be as independent as any people in the kingdom. Mr. Smith also says, "They don"t know the value of money, and they don"t know how to eke it out, or make it last. They are very improvident in that way, and a men"s energies are entirely destroyed." I maintain that the Shetland people know very well the value of money, and they also know how to eke it out and make the most of it. I also say they are not improvident or extravagant, but the reverse.
13,808. Do you think a man who is deeply in debt fishes as well as a man who is not in debt?-It is an exception when a man is deeply in debt: but that statement is a charge against the whole people of Shetland. There are exceptions to every rule, and it may be the case that some men are in debt.
13,809. But you don"t know the circ.u.mstances of the whole people of Shetland?-I have a pretty good idea with regard to most of them.
13,810. Would it surprise you to be informed that two-thirds of the fishermen in any district in Shetland were in debt at settlement to the merchant to whom they sold their fish?-Yes, that would surprise me.
13,811. Then the opinion you have formed as to the character of the Shetland people proceeds on the supposition that that is not the case?-It proceeds upon my own experience with Mr. Leask"s tenants and fishermen and seamen.
13,812. Would it surprise you to hear that a large proprietor in Shetland had said that fishermen required to be treated like children,-that they could not manage their own money matters,- and that therefore he was obliged to take them into his own hands?-I would be surprised to hear that, and I would not agree with it at all. I have found them all to be very intelligent and very sharp, and perfectly able to take care of themselves.
13,813. Do you think the men who are engaged in the ling fishing are of the same cla.s.s as those with whom you have had dealings?-Some of them are the same, and I think the men employed both in that fishing and in the Faroe fishing are all much the same. They have all had the same opportunities. Then in Mr.
Walker"s evidence, in answer to question 44,366, he estimates that 60 or 70 goes into a Shetland house every year. I think that is an over-estimate. About one half of that would be nearer the truth.
13,814. But his estimate of what goes into a Shetland house does not apply to fish merely, but to all produce and stock from the farm, and kelp and hosiery?-Still I consider that to be an over-estimate, and I think about one half the sum he named would be nearer the mark. Then, in question 44,368, he is asked, "But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?" and he replies, "Not a fraction of it. If a man gets 1 or 2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing." I deny that most positively, and I have proved it not to be the case.
13,815. But that is only in your own business?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,386, Mr. Walker says the cost of rearing a lb. of Shetland wool was something like 8s. to 10s. He must have been taking leave of his senses when he stated that. In order to disprove his statement, I say that Mr. Leask"s tenants in Yell pay 6d. a head for sheep for grazing over a whole twelve months, and a Shetland sheep carries from 2 to 3 lbs. of wool on an average, so that the cost of rearing it is something like 21/2d. or 3d.
13,816. But you don"t include the price of the sheep or other expenses except that of pasturage?-There are no expenses, except driving now and then. They don"t require to feed them in winter, except perhaps for a day or so, when there is snow on the ground.
13,817. Do they get no artificial food?-No. Very little of that is ever imported.
13,818. You don"t take into account the rent which the tenant pays for his ground?-That has nothing to do with the rearing of the sheep. They are reared altogether on the scattald.
13,819. But the use of the scattald is limited to tenants?-No.
Those who are not tenants get permission from Mr. Leask to graze sheep on the scattald at 6d. per head, being the same rate as for tenants.
13,820. Is that the usual practice in Shetland?-I don"t know that it is, but that is the practice with Mr. Leask, and plenty of people who are not tenants of his enjoy the same privilege. I merely mention that to disprove this statement of Mr. Walker"s, which is so glaringly incorrect. I hold that 1 lb. of Shetland wool as bought from Mr. Leask"s tenants costs only from 2d. to 3d. I don"t think I need take up your time by going over the evidence any further. I would merely say that I disagree with all, or almost all, of Mr.
Walker"s statements. The parts of his evidence with which I more particularly disagree are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. 44,290, 44,316, 44,318, 44,319, 44,337, 44,345, 44,346, 44,351, 44,353, 44,366, 44,368, 44,369, 44,370, 44,372, 44,374, 44,384, 44,385, 44,386, 44,389, 44,392, 44,411. The statements in Mr. Smith"s evidence which I more particularly deny are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos.
44,160, 44,195, 44,222, 44,225, 44,226, 44,241, 44,244, 44,245, 44,246, 44,247, 44,248, 44,252.
13,821. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK, examined.