2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845 or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to 1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the dates, so far as I recollect them.
2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick women"s manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery of different sorts.
2140. That is the coa.r.s.er hosiery?-Not necessarily coa.r.s.er, but stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies" and gentlemen"s wear.
2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles, and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different styles.
2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is asked?-I am.
2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no recollection of doing so for a good many years back.
2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that point?-My a.s.sistants would not give cash without coming to me, because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it.
2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or myself would fix the prices.
2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?- No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my brother-in-law.
2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes.
2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in.
2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might.
2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much, if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance ill.u.s.trating that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to pay the police a.s.sessment which had been charged upon her father.
She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her.
2151. Had she a pa.s.s-book with her?-No; she just came in with a small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she sold it and got the cash for it.
2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally.
2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies" under-dresses.
2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual.
2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come from the same person, or from a person who had been long employed by us.
2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes.
2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was her own material and her own article altogether. I have just mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred.
2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum: there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately, within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one.
The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circ.u.mstances, and I don"t think she would be employing herself in that way.
2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum, though I could not just identify her at present.
2160. Then you don"t know whether she knits to you?-She does not knit to me.
2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of anything of the kind.
2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm of R.B. Laurence & Co.
2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don"t know.
2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr.
Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co.
2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware.
He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a grocer and baker.
2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction, that might enable me to remember it.
2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally p.r.o.nounced by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence.
2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?- Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash down for particular shawls worth 2 or 2, 10s. I have given as much as 5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very special article.
2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it.
2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary for the woman to make any particular representation as to her wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for cash, and so the price was fixed.
2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted, there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery trade.
2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it.
2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail draper"s profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom.
2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the 17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don"t keep in our drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her, because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in paying her rent, or anything of that kind.
2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at all times to get drapery goods.
2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us, as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible.
2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system, although I don"t mean to defend it altogether, we might have a pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another description,-for this reason, that these goods of another description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing to pay anything in cash.
2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly; because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods, and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as in drapery goods, in many cases.
2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the same time, I don"t say but what an entirely cash system would ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers, and also to the women knitters.
2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated, antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it changed.
2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be better for the women to be always paid in cash.
2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked.
They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just as they pleased.
2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don"t know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where they thought they could lay it out to better advantage.
2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been examined on previous days with regard to that.