2607. What is their reason for wanting cash, if they are as well off with goods?-I suppose it is just for same reason, that we all want cash.
2608. But if they get goods, why should they not be content with that?-I don"t know. We have no objection to give them cash, if they will only be content to take less of it, on the principle have already explained.
2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters who were coming to sell to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of it?- I have. It would very great deal of bother if they would do so.
2610. What have they said to that proposal?-They have never entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of women employed to knit for us but of women from whom we bought shawls over the counter which corroborates what I have already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names the parties, but I would know their faces at once.
2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Three girls came into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell worth 1. At that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I said to them, "Now, what would you take for these in money? I am not saying that I will give you money, but what would you take for them in money?" One of them said, "Oh, I ken you will just be going to give us money." I said, "Why? Don"t you think the goods you get cost us money?" She said, "I ken that fine. I will give my 20s. shawl for 18s. 6d." I said, I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it, and asked her if she would take 17s. She said, "No," and that it would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl.
I said, "I don"t think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken off.
2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not take money?-No; they did not money; but another one said, "I would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a plaid in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would it do me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the plaid in exchange for the shawl?" That was her answer to me.
2613. Was one of these women Catherine Leslie?-I think so.
Leslie was her surname, but her first name I cannot recollect.
2614. There were some payments made by you to Mary Ann Sinclair for meal. Have you often paid accounts to tradesmen for meal?-Not often for meal.
2615. Or for provisions?-Very seldom. We sometimes pay small sums for such things when the people want them.
2616. But you are not able to say whether these goods are paid for directly to the dealer or through the hands of the women?-We sometimes pay for them to the dealer. For instance, if a woman was due an account to a shoemaker or any other person, and told us to pay a part of it for them, we would do it.
2617. Does the tradesman come to your shop and get the payment?-No; we just settle with him. He may come to the shop for it, or he may not; but it is very seldom that such things happen-so seldom, as not to be worth mentioning. The case of Mary Ann Sinclair to which you referred was just a cash transaction.
2618. You remember that now?-I remember that it was a cash transaction. She had to get cash from us to pay her meal with; but the particulars of the transaction I cannot recollect.
2619. She wanted the meal?-Yes; she wanted it, and we did not have it.
2620. But there were two transactions of that kind which she was concerned; one in which she was paid 11s. 3d. for meal, and another in which the entry is, "Paid William Smith for meal." Do you recollect about these transactions?-She had to get her meal from some one; but I really cannot say what took place
2621. I want to know what you think about the way in which these women get their living. Have you anything to say about that?-If Mary Ann Sinclair, or any one of her sisters, had come and said, "I want so much money for meal," I would have gone to the counter and given her out the money, and she would have gone to any one she pleased for it; or she might have come when I was out, and she could not get the money; or there might not have been money at the counter at the time; and in that case I would say "Go over to William Smith and get half a boll of meal, and I will pay him again." I don"t think there was any great breach of honesty in that.
2622. I do not say there was; I only want to know your opinion about the way in which those women supply themselves with provisions. Some of them I find are entirely dependent on the proceeds of their knitting for getting supplies of food; is not that so?-Yes.
2623. Now, if they take all the payment for their knitting, or the greater part of it, in goods, I don"t quite see as yet where the money comes from with which they pay for their living. Have you considered that point at all?-I have not. They have never complained to me about it.
2624. Don"t they say, when they come to you and beg you to give them a little money rather than goods, that they must have something to live upon?-I never heard that yet. It is very seldom they ask for money.
2625. Many of them live with their parents, and are provided for in that way; and when a woman is married, her husband provides for her; but there are single women in Lerwick, are there not, who depend upon their knitting mostly or entirely for their living, and how do they manage if they are paid almost entirely in goods?- These are the cases I have just been explaining to you. For instance, there are the Sinclair girls.
2626. They come and beg for a little money from you in that way?-Yes.
2627. Are there any others?-There are many others who get a little money.
2628. Who are some of these others?-I really don"t know that I can go into the matter more fully than I have done. There are several benevolent ladies in the town who buy knitting from these women. They are not bound to work for us; and these ladies, I suppose, pay them in cash. That is one of the ways in which it may be accounted for.
2629. Do you know whether the women prefer to sell to these ladies or to you?-They have never told me anything about that.
They just sell their goods where they think they will get the best bargain; but there is this to be said about it, that if they had not some place like ours, they would not get rid of one half the goods they make. The greater part of our knitters are in the country.
2630. And they knit with their own wool?-Yes.
2631. They are mostly the daughters of labourers, or farmers, or fishermen?-Yes; and they spend their leisure hours in knitting.
2632. You have no knowledge of the fact that there is often a want of food among these knitting women?-I never heard that they were really in want.
2633. Have they not stated that as a reason for your giving them money?-No; they have been very reticent on that point if it is a fact. I should be very sorry to know that there were any poor persons starving when I could help them.
2634. I suppose the character of the Shetland people is such that they don"t like to confess their poverty if they can help it?-That may be so. They may be too prudent on that point, for all I know; but I suppose there is a great variety of character here as everywhere else.
2635. Has this been a fair season in the knitting trade?-The season is getting over in some departments. It is generally in the fall that we sell most.
2636. I don"t mean for the sales, but for your purchases?-Well, the busy season is getting over.
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2637. I see from your line-book that on December 13th you gave out about 20 of these acknowledgments; on the 14th, about 20 also; 15th, 18; 16th, 17; 17th, 38; 18th, 10; 20th, 24; and on the 21st, 29. Would that be a busy season of the year?-Yes; very busy.
2638. Perhaps during the rest of the year you were not giving out quite so many each day?-Perhaps not.
2639. The dates of payment are all entered in the book, showing how long the lines have been in currency?-Yes; these have not been long in currency.
2640. I see that a great number of them have been paid up on the very day they were issued?-Yes; it was a system which I adopted in order to prevent any mistake or trusting to memory when I purchase a parcel of hosiery from a woman. Instead of trusting to memory, I give her a receipt for it, and she takes it with her. She may go anywhere else she likes, and then she comes back and gets the value of the line from me; it may be on the same day or two days afterwards, or it may be weeks. The greater part of these lines need not have appeared in the book at all, because they were paid up immediately afterwards. We might have kept a memorandum of them in the shop, and the people might have come and got the value afterwards. I believe other merchants do that, but I thought it was better to give the people an acknowledgment for their goods at the moment they brought them in.
2641. Do these lines go mostly to women in the country or in the town?-Just to any person who brings in goods. There is no distinction.
2642. You cannot say that the one cla.s.s of women get them more commonly than the other?-No; I cannot say that they do.
2643. Is there any other point you wish to speak to?-I wish to refer to a statement made by one of the previous witnesses, Catherine Borthwick. I was present when she said that she could get no cash, and also that there was a time when there was 5s. 6d.
due to her, and she had asked me for 1s. which I did not give to her. I had no recollection of the transaction at the time, and I have none still; but on referring to her account, I cannot find any occasion on which she had 5s. 6d. to get when she came to settle.
I now show her account, from which it appears that she did get cash.
2644. Do you remember whether her statement referred to a sale of goods or to money that was due to her for knitting?-I understood she referred to transactions she had had in the shop with regard to her knitting. At least that was my impression at the time.
2645. But if it were a sale of goods that she spoke of, that would not be entered in your books at all?-No, not if it were a sale of goods.
2646. Is there any other point you wish to speakto?-I should wish to make a remark or two about the value of a Shetland shawl. It was stated before the last Commission that a Shetland shawl could be made for very little money. I heard Mr. Laurenson"s evidence about that, and I was rather surprised to hear that a 30s.
shawl could be made for so little as he stated, or anything approaching to it. It certainly has not been my experience. For a 30s. shawl the worsted would cost 10s.; and if Mr. Laurenson meant a real Shetland shawl, I should say it would cost 12s. at any rate. I consider that the prime cost of a Shetland shawl that would bring 30s. would be this: thirty-six cuts at 4d., 12s.; knitting, 14s.; dressing, 6d.-in all, 26s. 6d.
2647. The 30s. at which that shawl would sell in the south would be the price charged by the retail dealer there?-No. I don"t know what the retail dealer"s charge for it would be.
2648. Then the 30s. is your charge for it?-Yes.
2649. That is 3s. 6d. you would have on it?-Yes.
2650. Is not that a profit?-Well; it is not a very heavy one.
2651. But still there is a profit?-Did I ever say that we had no profit?
2652. I thought you rather made out that the only profit you had was on the goods you sold?-I am speaking here of the cash value of the thing. We don"t get our wool for barter; the wool costs us cash