2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting; and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less.
2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes.
2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash a little with that, but I can easily explain it.
2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing.
2795. If there is anything you can explain on which Mr. Laurenson and Mr. Sinclair have differed, I shall be glad to hear it?-Of course it is not my business to try to reconcile their evidence, but I was about to say that the hosiery market in the south is very irregular. It is done to some extent by a kind of, I can hardly call it favouritism, but there are houses in England that if they begin to buy from one party, they will not afterwards buy from another. If they get a very long credit, they will give a higher price, and I know of persons they are constantly dealing with to whom they will give 9s. or 10s., for an article, while they would only offer 6s.
or 7s. for it to another.
2796. Are you now referring to people in the south?-Yes, wholesale dealers. And just as we may happen to get into the good graces of a good customer, so prices vary.
2797. But every article has a different price of its own, I fancy?
You cannot price a Shetland shawl without seeing it and judging of it both as to the material and the workmanship?-No; that is quite true.
2798. You cannot get twenty shawls of a certain size at the same price?-No; but we can perhaps select them out of a greater quant.i.ty.
2799. But you cannot get twenty shawls made to order exactly of the same value?-No.
2800. What is your reason for carrying on that system of paying in goods?-It has been of old date. It was the practice when I commenced to the trade; but my own impression is that if a money system were adopted, only a very few of the producers would accept of it, because they would, as a consequence and as a general rule, have to take 20 or 25 per cent. less in money than they would get in goods. We buy with the understanding that we are to realize what we pay in goods. As I have said, sometimes for a certain article, or in a good market, a good deal more may be realized; but then we have the risk of loss, and we have a heavy discount; and therefore we have to live by the profit on the goods we sell. If we were to pay in cash, then of course we must buy at a lower rate, so as to give us some profit on the shawl, and consequently if a woman were to come in with a shawl, and to agree that the price was to be 20s. worth of goods, it is not likely that, unless she was very hard up for money, she would take 15s.
or 16s.
2801. Can you give me any instance in which you have paid a cash price for a shawl which was lower than what you were willing to give in goods?-I don"t recollect any case of that kind just now, except one.
2802. How long ago was that?-Not very long; perhaps a few months.
2803. What were the circ.u.mstances of that transaction?-It was one of these fine shawls. I don"t know what I would have offered for it, but the person said she would give it to me for 2 in money, and it was agreed that that was to be the bargain. When [Page 62]
I saw the shawl, it did not turn out to be quite so good as I had expected. The woman had got 1 of money at the time when the bargain was made, and after that she had taken up some goods out of the shop, and the balance of the price was taken out in goods.
2804. The bargain was made in that case, before the shawl was knitted?-No, the shawl was knitted.
2805. I thought you said, it did not turn out to be quite so good as you expected?-No, it was not quite so good when I came to see it as I expected from hearing of it.
2806. Had you looked at the shawl before you made the bargain?-I had seen her knitting it. I may remark, that very often these goods turn out better than they look when they are in an undressed state, and sometimes much worse.
2807. Have you any objection to adopt a cash system the people are willing to agree to it?-Of course I would have no particular objection; but my own impression is, that a cash system, if adopted, would give a very great check to the sale of goods.
2808. Don"t you think it would be better for the merchant?-I don"t know. I think a merchant would never risk so much if he had to pay in cash, or push so hard as he does now.
2809. Would the merchant in that case not make sure of getting two profits instead of one?-No, he would not do that.
2810. He would have a profit on his hosiery, because he would buy it at a cash price, and sell it at a price which would pay him for his risk, would he not?-There much compet.i.tion in the trade already that the price kept up to its utmost point. Indeed, it is kept above what the goods actually realize.
2811. But if a man was depending upon the profit he was to get on his hosiery, he would not pay more for it than he could afford?- Of course he would not; but just as in other businesses, opposition here is sometimes the life of trade, and sometimes it is the death of trade.
2812. How do you apply that principle here?-There is sometimes such a keen compet.i.tion that people cut up one another.
2813. Do you think the compet.i.tion, would be so keen that the cash prices for the hosiery would be forced up to the level of the goods prices that are paid now?-That would depend. Those who had the best markets would be able to give the best, price, and no doubt they might by that means be able to drive others comparatively out of the trade.
2814. Is it the case, that you generally send your shawls south at such a figure as leaves you no profit upon them?-Taking it all in all, I never have any profit on certain articles. When I have an opportunity of selling to a private person, or when I get private orders, I generally realize a profit, but when I sell to wholesale merchants taking the thing as a whole, I consider that I have never realized the full price of my goods from the hosiery which I have sold.
2815. Is that one of the reasons which lead you to continue the system of paying in goods?-Of course, the system is quite general.
2816. No doubt; but supposing it were not general, would that be a reason for continuing it in order that you might make a profit out of the goods you give for the hosiery?-Of course I cannot say exactly what it might be, further than that, as I have already stated, we had to pay in cash, we would have to buy at considerably lower rates, and I am not aware that there is such a demand in the south as to enable us to do that.
2817. But you say that at present you do not make a profit upon the goods sent south?-Yes; I say that there is no profit upon the goods sent south, taking it as a general thing. The profit I have is upon the goods which I sell in exchange for the hosiery which I buy.
2818. You say you generally buy shawls: you do not get them knitted for you?-No, I have very few knitted for me.
2819. Suppose you pay 25s. for a shawl, at what price will you invoice that to your southern customer?-Generally, I would just invoice it at about the same price. Sometimes I am obliged to put it lower, but when an article after dressing turns out to be better than I expected, then I may put a shilling or so upon it.
2820. Do you keep an invoice-book?-I keep no invoice-book, but only a day-book and ledger.
2821. The day-book shows the number of shawls you send south, and the prices at which they are invoiced?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, WILLIAM JOHNSTONE, examined.
2822. You are a merchant in Lerwick in the same line of business that is carried on by Mr. Robert Sinclair?-Yes, something similar
2823. You deal in the same articles, and purchase hosiery in the same way?-Yes.
2824. Do you also employ knitters?-Yes.
2825. How many of them do you employ?-I can hardly tell. I have very few just now. I have sometimes had as many as from 30 to 50, but I have not nearly so many at present. I don"t think I have a dozen altogether just now.
2826. Do they mostly live in Lerwick?-Yes.
2827. Are these knitters so employed by you paid for their work by taking goods, or do you, sometimes pay them in cash?-They are generally paid by taking goods. If they ask for a little cash at any time, I will give it.
2828. Are their names entered in your books?-Yes.
2829. Has each of them an account in your ledger?-Yes; a small book which I keep for the purpose. [Produces book.] We generally settle for an article when they bring it in, but sometimes there may be a balance on one side or the other.
2830. Does this book show the amount of cash that is paid for the shawls brought in to you?-No. There are many transactions that are never entered here at all.
2831. But does the book show the amount of cash that is paid for shawls which are knitted to order with your own wool?-No; when I give out wool for the knitting of a shawl, no note of it appears in the book at all.
2832. What note do you take of it?-I merely take a memorandum on a piece of paper.
2833. Then you may have a lot of slips of that kind lying beside you?-No. I very likely burn them whenever the shawls are returned, and if I know the woman sufficiently well, I may give the wool to her without keeping any note of it of any kind.
2834. Do you trust to your memory for that?-Yes. I weigh the wool before it goes out.
2835. What proportion of the wages of these workers is paid by you in money?-I cannot say.
2836. Will there be a shilling in the pound paid money?-I cannot say, but I think there will be more than that.