3343. Do you issue the lines which are given out in the shop?-I very often issue lines. I perhaps issue more of them than any one else.
3344. Do you also serve customers who have lines?-Yes.
3345. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the lines are generally brought back by the parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are generally brought back by the owner of the hosiery.
3346. Is it the party herself to whom the line has been given that usually brings it back?-Very often but sometimes they may send a line in by another party as a messenger.
3347. How do you know that?-Sometimes a line may be brought back an hour after it has been given out, by a different party, and they will perhaps make remark in order to let me know that they have been sent by the party to whom the line belonged.
3348. Are you aware that the lines are exchanged or sold by the parties to whom they were first issued?-I have heard something to that effect this very morning.
3349. But you have not known of that in your own experience?- No. It has not come under my notice, unless from report.
3350. Does the party bringing one of these lines for goods ever tell you that she had purchased it?-No. I don"t remember an instance of that kind.
3351. You don"t remember any particular case in which there had been a sale of the line for cash, or for other goods which you don"t supply?-I say there was an instance this morning which came under my notice, in which a line had been exchanged, and in which the party had got cash for the line.
3352. From whom had the cash been got?-I could give the name of the party to whom the line belonged, but not of the other party.
3353. Was that an instance of a line being brought back by a person to whom it had not been originally issued?-No; it was merely a party in the shop who said that some time ago-she did not state the time-she had a line which she had given to another person, and had got cash for it. But at the same time she said that she did not ask cash from Mr. Sinclair, or she might have got it.
She felt diffident in asking for cash, because she had brought her hosiery to the shop on the understanding that she was to take goods for it. The receipt she got had not been a cash transaction.
3354. Is that the only time, in your experience in the shop, that you have heard of these lines being exchanged for cash, or for other goods than those which Mr. Sinclair sells?-It is the only one I can point to in particular.
3355. But do you swear that you don"t know that lines have been so exchanged?-No, I would not swear that. I said I have heard a vague report that on several occasions they have been exchanged, but I could not point to any other case than the one I have mentioned.
3356. Is cash ever given in your shop upon lines?-Yes, often. It is given on lines, even when the hosiery article has been taken in over the counter with understanding that the party was to take all goods for it.
3357. The lines bear that their value is to be given in goods but notwithstanding that you know that cash had been given on them?-Yes.
3358. How often?-I could not say how often, but I can point to one woman in particular who has got cash in that way. She stated that she was in need of it, and she got it even when the hosiery article was taken with the understanding that only goods were to be given for it.
3359. In that case, was any discount taken for cash?-No.
3360. Was the whole amount given in cash?-Yes, all cash. She said she required it to buy meal with.
3361. What was the amount of that line?-It was the case with that woman on several lines, not on one line in particular.
3362. Who was the woman?-I should prefer to give her name in private.
3363. What proportion of her line was given in cash?-I could not say what proportion, but she got the proportion she asked for. Of course, when giving money in that way, we considered it was a deduction from the profit on our goods.
3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our profit.
3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?- Yes.
3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the wholesale dealer the same price.
3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come back, then there would be a loss.
3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales for one profit.
3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular case except the one you have mentioned?-No.
3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case.
3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any one.
3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing.
3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just speaking of it among the crowd in the shop.
3374. You don"t remember the names of these women?-I do not.
3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to believe that it is done.
3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the vague report so often-not once, but several times.
3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any great extent?-I could not say to what extent.
3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but only that it was common.
3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any women who have done it?-I do.
3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one who has said it to-day
3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No.
3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but sometimes there are entries, "To lines." Can you explain that?- Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in goods.
3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of paying their debt to another?-Yes.
3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need of it.
3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair.
3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair"s examination about that. His attention was directed to an entry of "Cash, for meal," he was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand, and that I just put it down as she said it.
3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There are not many cases, I don"t think we have a similar case in the town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them an extra piece of work.
3388. In the same witness"s account there was another entry of "Cash, for meal:" do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked.
3389. Does the entry, "To William Smith, for meal," mean that you paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His account would show that the amount which he received from us was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his account he would state that he had given out so much meal to them.
3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?- Sometimes there was an account between them at that time.
3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair"s personal account.