I am aware that Eddie Vedder is not a comedian or a comic actor. Yes, he was hilarious in Walk Hard, but I think most people still see him as a musician, not a funny person. I was thrilled to be asked to interview Eddie Vedder-and all of the members of Pearl Jam-to help them promote their last record, Lightning Bolt. Even though Eddie is way nicer and cooler than I am, and has the kind of artistic accomplishments I can only dream about, I have always felt like we are on a similar journey. We are about the same age. We have used our lives and experiences, our joy and pain, to create personal work that we can stand behind. We have tried, above all, to keep our careers going with our integrity and humanity intact. Plus, I am fanatical about his music.
Judd Apatow: Did you ever see the Quadrophenia doc.u.mentary?
Eddie Vedder: I saw, like, an hour version. There"s got to be a version that"s longer and more detailed, but- Judd: Yeah, you want the early cut, from before they tightened it up. For me, that was the big record. I"ve heard that was a mind blower for you, too.
Eddie: Yeah. And a lifesaver. A life ring to hang on to because, for some reason, I just didn"t feel like there was anybody I could relate to on the whole planet. n.o.body at school and certainly no one in the household. And then, all of a sudden, it was like here"s some guy from London named Pete, and he knew everything that was going on.
Judd: How old were you?
Eddie: Probably about thirteen, fourteen. And all kinds of stuff was happening in my life. It was really like, just, you know, it was like a bridge with the planks covering a big, deep chasm-and the planks were just falling. That whole period, I was just hanging on.
Judd: I feel like I had the same exact experience. My parents broke up in between eighth and ninth grade and had a crazy divorce. They didn"t actually even get fully divorced until I was in college. They fought. For some reason, Quadrophenia-even now I try to think, what was it about Quadrophenia that made me feel a little better, and part of it was that song "I"m One." Which we later used in Freaks and Geeks because it captured exactly how I felt. Like, How am I gonna get noticed? Why am I getting treated so badly? Why am I invisible at school? But I was unconscious to it for decades, what it meant to me. Was that your experience?
Eddie: Absolutely. I mean, it was a number of things-I was finding messages in, like, Split Enz and Talking Heads. But as a whole, Quadrophenia was the one that...thank G.o.d the record store prescribed that drug, because that"s what got me through. Even though it didn"t offer any answers, in the end it was just knowing that you weren"t the only one going through these things.
Judd: When I was a kid, no one was into comedy. I felt so alone with this weird interest and it was only when I moved to Los Angeles and went to college and met the comedians at the Comedy Store and the Improv that I thought, Ohh, so there"s hundreds of people who like everything that I like and who want to talk about it all night long. Did you have that experience getting into the music scene?
Eddie: I remember-I still remember distinctly that somebody ended up obtaining a small bag of mushrooms and we were all gonna have a surf, and it ended up being a great experience. But while we were waiting for things to happen, we were playing a Kinks record and I said to my friend, "Yeah, see the guitar tone, the distortion, the s.p.a.ce in between," and he was like, "You know, some people don"t listen to music like you. Some people just listen to it to enjoy it." He was basically telling me to shut the f.u.c.k up.
Judd: (Laughs) Eddie: He was just trying to listen to the song. And he had a valid point. But it was just always that way. With me-and I think eventually you-you find that. And then certainly with the group of guys in the band, you know, after a show, if we have a night and we have to travel or we"re still up and awake and sitting in a confined s.p.a.ce talking, we can talk all night about music. We"ll talk until we get to the next place, laughing hysterically, remembering this thing, or "Oh yeah, so-and-so produced this one." You realize how fortunate you are and how involved everybody is to this day. The pa.s.sion for music is as strong as it was when we were nave little kids and it seemed like the most exciting thing in the world.
Judd: With a lot of comedy people, I feel like there"s like a moment where you realize that certain friends have figured out their mental state, calmed down and evolved, and others kinda spin out. In the beginning, you do it because you"re crazy. You"re angry, you"re trying to show somebody, you have low self-esteem-as a comedian, you go onstage because you so desperately want approval, you"re willing to risk rejection by hundreds of people at a comedy club to get it. But at some point that kind of goes away and then you start creating for a different reason.
Eddie: I just try to always remember where that initial spark came from. It"s like a pilot light, and you try to make sure it doesn"t go out.
Judd: Sometimes I forget my pain. I try to remember what I was so neurotic about. It"s still there, almost as a vibration, but I forget the specifics.
Eddie: An interesting moment for me was the movie Into the Wild, when Sean Penn asked me to contribute a song. I thought, Yeah, I can relate to this kid, this character-and I was a little surprised at how quickly it all just came back. I thought I"d processed all that. But it was crazy. It was just like a rash that had been slightly just under the skin the whole time. It was upsetting, you know. But you"re just kind of putting it out and turning it into something hopefully worthwhile that other people can kind of experience, too. They can share in that and not feel like they were the only ones.
Judd: Who"s been most helpful to you in your career? I"ve always had mentors who have shown me the way, who showed me, This is how you can do this work and not go crazy. Garry Shandling talked a lot about honesty and the importance of telling the truth in your work and honesty, and as a kid, I"d never heard about any of that. At each stage of my career, I find myself thinking, Wow, I can have lunch with Mike Nichols or Marshall Brickman-people who have done this work so well, for so many decades. Like, how do you stay engaged for that long? Who have you learned from?
Eddie: Oh, I feel like I"ve been learning from everybody. The other night, I got to sit with Tom Petty for a little bit and then, you know, there"s Bruce and Neil and Pete and Kim and John Doe and Ian MacKaye and Thurston and it"s all-in a way, you"re so fortunate because you"re working in something where it"s a bit of a craft or whatever. It"s an endless learning cycle.
Judd: I can never believe that I can sit and talk to any of these people. Does that ever go away for you?
Eddie: I think, at some point, you have to get out of that state. And I think it"s more comfortable to them, too, to know that you feel like you"ve earned the right. That"s only happened recently. That I feel like I"ve at least earned their respect enough to be sitting across the table from them. It probably makes them less nervous.
Judd: Exactly. (Laughs) What is your spirituality? Are you religious? Or are you still trying to figure that out?
Eddie: It"s a curiosity, for sure, and an unanswered question. I think we can all agree that there"s no evidence to say that it"s just this one thing. But I think about the people who have stopped asking the questions, who have stopped searching and stopped looking for answers. I think that when you"re committed to one religion-let alone into the level of being fundamentalist-you close yourself off to things that might be out there. There becomes a closed-mindedness where you don"t allow anything more in, and I think you"re missing out on half the plot, or half the experience of life on this planet.
Judd: You have two daughters, right?
Eddie: Yeah.
Judd: What"s your theory, going forward, regarding the war with kids to be a part of the digital generation? What will your boundaries be?
Eddie: Well, raising them Amish is maybe the answer. We"ve been doing a lot of calligraphy.
Judd: Farming?
Eddie: Yeah, farming.
Judd: But it"s a war with kids, isn"t it? They want to be a part of it so badly. My daughter always says, "That"s how we communicate, Dad, you can"t stop it." But you can tell it"s hurting them. They are not comfortable in silence and you hate to be that groovy person who"s like, "It"s hurting their imaginations!" But you can tell that they don"t allow anything to come forward because they"re just constantly filling all the mental s.p.a.ce.
Eddie: When we were kids, back in the day, it was like, "Don"t sit too close to the TV." That was our only electronic boundary.
Judd: (Laughs) Eddie: Ten feet back, at all times! But now I"m worried about myself and certainly worried for them. I"m not really sure how it"s gonna-I think it"s just giving them enough they can at least balance it out. Our freedoms are going up in smoke, but if you still like take a walk, or take a hike or have a surf-if you"re lucky enough to be in a situation where you do these things or go to the park or whatever, at least that can still feel free for a while.
Judd: Do you ever think about what, emotionally, you"re giving away in your music? When I make a movie I think, Oh, that person knows that I"m talking about them. Like if I made a record and there were three songs about being married and two of them were like, this is really hard or a drag, I"d get in trouble immediately for it- Eddie: Well, no. If the emotion is real and the idea-I guess one thing you do is try to mask it slightly.
Judd: (Laughs) Eddie: But if it"s the real thing, then you just do it and deal with the circ.u.mstances.
Judd: Are you happy, family-wise?
Eddie: My type of personality is that even when things are going really good, then I feel like something bad could happen at any minute. I think a lot about the fragility of life. From knowing people like Tomas Young, who"s a soldier who lost the use of most of his body due to a couple of gunshot wounds in Iraq, and the challenges he faces, or just having friends who are dealing with diseases-knowing these people has given me a great appreciation for life and the moment. I just see that fragility at all times.
Judd: When you start a record, do you have an idea of what it"s going to be, or is it something that evolves once you guys start working?
Eddie: Whatever the music is dictates what the record is, especially if I"m writing lyrics to someone else"s piece. What you"re listening for is, like, What does this mean? What is this? What are these sounds or what is this rhythm or momentum of it? I think the faster songs are easier, because it seems like there"s plenty of aggressive stuff to write about these days. But maybe the more atmospheric stuff comes, you know-those become a little more of a puzzle, trying to line everything up and then have it create a meaning for you, or a story or something that relates to the sound of the song.
Judd: Are you writing actively or is the music the beginning of your process in writing lyrics?
Eddie: It"s pretty much the beginning. I should do that more, you know, but usually it"s just something that connects all at once. Something lands on my shoulder and then it"s just a matter of waiting and getting it down. And then there"s this great writing tool-I don"t know if you"ve heard about it. It"s called a vaporizer.
Judd: (Laughs) Eddie: And so, you put your tools out on your desk and then you just start, you know, bricklaying and then you see what happens the next morning.
Judd: I think my whole process is wrong. I"m just stressed all day long trying to think of things. I"m sitting there thinking, Why aren"t you thinking of anything? You"re behind. You need to get going. I"m going to try this "vaporizer" you"re talking about.
Eddie: I think we have a signature model coming out soon.
Judd: You should just be a sponsor of that. You could have your own brand, like the George Foreman Grill.
Eddie: Well, certainly in a few states, we could air those commercials.
Judd: But what will you tell your kids about the rock star life, and what your journey has been like? They can start googling you pretty soon. My daughter said to me recently, "You took mushrooms at a Frank Sinatra concert."
Eddie: I think I need to get home and check on the kids.
Judd: (Laughs) No, no, but I never thought, Oh yeah, I did an interview five years ago where I told this story. I wasn"t prepared for my reaction and explanation-which was that someone force-fed them to me. It was a terrible, terrible incident. I was dosed. I guess it happens at some point that they have to understand everything you"ve been through.
Eddie: Right. Well, umm...
Judd: I just blew your mind. (Laughs) Eddie: I"m a little paranoid about the computer....
Judd: Yeah.
Eddie: A crazy thing happened the other night. My daughter likes to listen to this ukulele record that I did-she goes to bed to it, and especially if I"m not around, at least I"m there playing her to sleep. There"s a sad song about sleeping by myself or something and it was pretty intense. She started by asking me, you know, "What"s that song about? Why are you singing that?" And I said, "Oh, that was before I met Mom," and the whole thing. And then she started bawling. She said, "It"s so sad, it"s so sad." I had to comfort her, but she really kind of lost it, it was pretty intense, so we skip that song now. It was interesting to see the empathy that she had for her dad. I don"t know if I ever had that, or an opening to have that. I was raised differently.
Judd: How much Disney Channel are your kids making you watch?
Eddie: I don"t want to say anything, you know, because there are certain good things about Disney.
Judd: Yes.
Eddie: But that channel is not one of them. I challenge you to find a single character, if not just even a single line in a half-hour show, that has anything of value and that isn"t said with an att.i.tude other than, you know, being snarky.
Judd: Yeah.
Eddie: And it rubs off, you know. It"s a bad influence. I probably sound like my parents. I mean, I was listening to Country Joe and the Fish and George Carlin and, you know, Jimi Hendrix and all of that. We were pretty excited about this stuff.
Judd: You never went with the Shaun Ca.s.sidy records?
Eddie: Mmm, no.
Judd: No Partridge Family period?
Eddie: No. But Michael Jackson? Yeah.
Judd: I read somewhere that you could sing like Michael Jackson for a short period, a short prep.u.b.escent period.
Eddie: He"s an amazing singer.
Judd: Oh, absolutely.
Eddie: I had this period in Chicago where we lived with some foster brothers-it was like a home for boys kind of thing-and there was a bas.e.m.e.nt and we had a lot of Motown records, Sly and the Family Stone and James Brown, and we had kids of all races and all-it was a really good upbringing in that way. It made you grow up and toughen up a little bit, even though I was only like seven or eight. But man, Michael Jackson was an anomaly. The stuff coming off of that record player. That wasn"t kitsch. He could really sing.
Judd: I used to watch the Jacksons" variety show.
Eddie: That was after the cartoon and all that, right?
Judd: Yeah, the cartoon. What was the animal he had in the cartoon? Did he have a mouse or- Eddie: They had a snake and two mice. I show my kids that thing.
Judd: You have those shows on video?
Eddie: No, sixteen-millimeter film. We like to watch films on the wall.
Judd: Oh, wow.
Eddie: It"s a part of their Amish upbringing.
This interview took place at the Pearl Jam offices and rehearsal s.p.a.ce.
FREAKS AND GEEKS ORAL HISTORY.
(2013).
I was given the chance to guest-edit the comedy issue of Vanity Fair a few years ago, and one of the first articles I a.s.signed was an oral history of Freaks and Geeks. Why? Well, beyond blatant self-promotion, I figured: I"ve been so fortunate to work with a lot of talented people and we"ve done a lot of things I am proud of, but at the end of the day, Freaks and Geeks was our Revolver. That show was the moment where I think we got it right, and I don"t say that in a c.o.c.ky way, because really, it wasn"t me. It was the success of a hundred people simultaneously. It was our magical moment, and this is the story of how it went down. If it never happens again, I"m okay with that. At least it happened once.
Judd Apatow: I first met Paul [Feig] in the mid-eighties, hanging around "the Ranch," this incredibly cheap house a bunch of comedians rented really deep in the boonies in the San Fernando Valley. It was all these guys who had come out to L.A. from the Midwest, and all they did was smoke cigarettes and watch infomercials. I also used to see Paul in comedy clubs and thought he was really funny.
Paul Feig: We would go out and do our stand-up shows and reconvene at the Ranch and play poker and drink coffee until the sun came up. That was our routine every night for years. Judd was younger than everyone else-he was really considered to be just a kid. At the same time, he was booking his own stand-up night at some club, working for Comic Relief. I would say, "This guy is really smart. Everybody should be nice to him because he could be running the town someday." He was the most mature seventeen-year-old I"d ever met in my life.
Judd: By the late nineties, Paul"s acting career wasn"t going anywhere, so he started trying to write. One day I b.u.mped into him and said, "If you have any ideas for TV, let me know." I didn"t think he would hand me a finished script a few months later, and I certainly didn"t expect it to be the best thing I have ever worked on. That just never happens.
Paul Feig: I had just come off of a year of trying to promote this movie I"d written, directed, produced, and paid for, and I had lost a good-paying acting job before that on Sabrina, the Teenage Witch. Everything had kind of hit the rocks; I was really at my lowest point. But I"d always wanted to write a high school show. I"d seen so many where it was like, Who are these people? I felt like they weren"t honest at all. I kicked the thing out really fast-I think it had just been gestating for so long in my brain-cleaned it up and gave it to my wife, and she told me to send it to Judd. He called about twelve hours after I sent him the script. He was like, "I love this. I"m going to have DreamWorks buy it." It was that moment when you go, Wow, my life"s just changed.
Dan McDermott (then head of DreamWorks Television): Within twenty-four hours, I"d say, we got a pa.s.s from Fox, from CBS, from ABC. A day or two later, we heard from Sh.e.l.ley McCrory, a development exec at NBC. She said, "If we don"t make this show, I"m quitting the television business." Scott Sa.s.sa had come in as president of NBC West Coast, and Scott wasn"t a content guy [he was previously in charge of NBC"s owned-and-operated stations], so he was deferring to his people more than other network heads do.
Scott Sa.s.sa: Networks then programmed towards something called "least objectionable programming," which meant the show that would suck the least so people wouldn"t change the channel. Freaks and Geeks wasn"t one of those least objectionable shows.
Paul Feig: We went over to NBC, and I remember feeling that "new person in the industry" kind of indignation, like, "If they want to change this at all, I"m not going to do the show." So I start to make that speech and Sh.e.l.ley goes, "Don"t change a thing." It was like, This is not at all what I"ve always heard network development is like.
Dan McDermott: Judd and Paul said, "We want to try to cast real kids-we don"t want to cast TV kids." And, again, Scott basically said, "Sounds good to me!"
Paul Feig: My friends and I weren"t popular in high school, we weren"t dating all the time, and we were just trying to get through our lives. It was important to me to show that side. I wanted to leave a chronicle-to make people who had gone through it laugh, but also as a primer for kids going in, to say, "Here"s what you can expect. It"s horrifying but all you should really care about is getting through it. Get your friends, have your support group. And learn to be able to laugh at it."
Judd: The pilot had a very daring existential idea, which was that a young, really smart girl sits with her dying grandmother and asks her if she sees "the light," and her grandma says no. And all the rules go out the window. The girl decides to have a more experimental high school experience, because she doesn"t know if she believes anymore. I was always surprised that the network didn"t notice that that"s what our pilot was about.
Paul Feig: I also really wanted the show to be about the fear of s.e.x. I got tired of every teenager being portrayed as h.o.r.n.y and completely cool with s.e.x, because that was not my experience.
Judd: Paul felt like most kids are not trying to get s.e.x, but trying to avoid that moment. You could split them into kids who are constantly trying to get older and kids that are desperately trying to hold on to their immaturity.
Paul Feig: First day of prep, we get into the office, and Judd"s like, "Let"s tear the script apart." And I said, "What do you mean? They don"t want us to." And he said, "Yeah, I know, but let"s see if we can make it better." And it was this stripping away of the old Paul Feig, who was a complete control freak, who wouldn"t let people change a word of anything he wrote.
Judd: Paul showed up when we started production with this bible he"d written about the show, hundreds of pages long, with every character in detail-what they wore, their favorite songs. I asked him to write another few episodes to explore the world, and he banged out two more. We took a lot of moments from them and put them into the pilot.
(Jake Kasdan, twenty-four, is hired to direct the pilot; he will stick around for the run of the series, directing nearly a third of the episodes and helping edit the rest.) Judd: Jake and I had the same agent, so I was always hearing a lot about this amazing young director. He had made a detective movie called Zero Effect, which, for some reason, I didn"t bother to watch until the day after I hired him. Thank G.o.d it turned out to be good.
(Casting begins.) Judd: In Paul"s pilot, he really understood the geeks, but you could tell he didn"t hang out with the freaks because it wasn"t as specific. So I said we should just try to cast unique characters and rewrite the pilot to their personalities.
Allison Jones (casting director and winner of the show"s one Emmy): I had never had any experience like that before-inventing while casting. It had always been about trying to fit the person to read the lines correctly.
Justin Falvey (DreamWorks development executive): From the moment the actor walks into what is usually the sterile, anxiety-ridden room of casting, Judd"s applauding and everybody"s got great energy. Judd and Paul created a carnival atmosphere.