Mr Jay desired to be informed, whether any steps were necessary for him to take for forwarding the clothing at Cadiz to America. The Count answered, that he waited the French Amba.s.sador"s answer on the subject, and that he had as yet no inventory of them, but that he would again speak to the Amba.s.sador, and make arrangements for sending them on to America as soon as possible.
Mr Jay then proceeded to regret that the pleasure he derived from these instances of his Majesty"s friendship to the United States, was mingled with pain from being informed by the abovementioned paper, that the King conceived he might have just cause to be disgusted with them.
Because, 1st; they had drawn the bills of exchange without his previous consent; and, 2dly, because they had not given any tokens of a recompense. Mr Jay reminded his Excellency that these bills were drawn upon himself, and not on Spain, and although that Congress might have hoped, for reasons already a.s.signed, to have been enabled to pay them by a loan from his Majesty, yet that every other usual measure was left open for that purpose. That an application to Spain for such a loan could give no just cause of offence, for that if it had not been convenient to her to make it, all that she had to was to have told him so, and he was then at liberty to take such measures for procuring it elsewhere as he might think proper. The Count replied, that what Mr Jay observed was true, but that certainly the bills were drawn with an expectation of their being paid by Spain, and that this might probably have been done if previous notice of the measure had been given. That he always intended to have done something towards their payment, but had been prevented by disappointments, and the exigencies of the State. Mr Jay continued to observe, that the second cause a.s.signed for this disgust, viz. that Congress had given no tokens of a recompense, must have risen from a mistake. He reminded his Excellency, that he had never requested a donation from Spain, but that on the contrary he had repeatedly offered to pledge the faith of the United States for the repayment with interest, within a reasonable time after the war, of whatever sum his Majesty might be so kind as to lend them. To these remarks the Count said only, that interest for the money would have been no object with them; that they would gladly have lent it to us without interest, and repeated his regret at the disappointment which had prevented them. He appeared rather uneasy and desirous of waiving the subject.
Mr Jay next called the Count"s attention to a part of the paper in question, which informed him "that there were hints (though no credit was given to it) of some understanding between America and the Court of London." He observed, that this subject was both delicate and important; that so far as this understanding related to Congress, or the governments of either of the States, he was sure that this insinuation was entirely groundless; that there might possibly be intriguing individuals, who might have given cause to such suspicions; that if there were such men or bodies of men it would be for the good of the common cause that they should be detected, and their designs frustrated. He therefore requested, that if his Excellency had any evidence on this subject, he would be pleased to communicate it, and thereby enable him to give Congress an opportunity of taking such measures as circ.u.mstances might render proper. The Count said, he had nothing specific or particular as yet to communicate. That he was pursuing measures for further discoveries, and that he would mention to Mr Jay whatever information might result from them.
Mr Jay resumed his animadversions on the paper in question by observing, that it a.s.sured him it was necessary, "that Congress should give sure and effective tokens of a good correspondence, proposing reciprocal measures of a compensation, &c. in order that his Majesty might extend his further dispositions towards them." That for his part he could conceive of no higher tokens, which one nation could give to another of friendship and good will, than their commissioning and sending a person for the express purpose of requesting his Majesty to enter into treaties of amity and alliance with them, and that on terms of reciprocity of interest and mutual advantage. To this the Count replied, that to this day he was ignorant of these terms, and that no particular propositions had been made him. Mr Jay then reminded him of his letters from Cadiz, and of the conference on the subject at Aranjues on the 2d day of June last, in the latter of which, after conferring on the subject of aids, and of the treaty, his Excellency had promised to reduce his sentiments on both to writing, and send him notes on each; that as to the first, Mr Jay had received the notes, but not on the last; that he had been in constant expectation of receiving them, and that delicacy forbade pressing his Excellency on that matter, or offering anything further till he should have leisure to complete them.
He said he thought he had given them to Mr Jay or Mr Carmichael, which both of them a.s.sured him he had not. Of this the Count appeared after a little time satisfied, when Mr Jay resumed the subject by remarking, that the order of conducting that business appeared to him to be this; that as a right was reserved by the Secret Article to his Majesty to accede to the treaty between France and America whenever he thought proper, and that the latter would go into a discussion of any alteration the King might propose, that should be founded on reciprocity of interest, the first question was whether his Majesty would accede to it as it was, or whether he would propose any and what alterations.
The Count here interrupted Mr Jay by saying, that the interest of France and Spain with respect to America were so distinct, as necessarily to render different treaties necessary. Mr Jay answered, that admitting this to be the case, the treaty with France might be made the basis, and then go on _mutatis mutandis_. The Count proceeded to say, that it would not conduce to the general pacification to hurry on the treaty; that finding Congress were not disposed to cessions, without which the King would not make a treaty, he thought it best by mutual services and acts of friendship, to continue making way for more condescensions on both sides, and not excite animosities and warmth by discussing points which the King would never yield. That, therefore, Mr Jay might take time to write to Congress on the subject, and obtain their instructions.
He said, that previous to Mr Jay"s or M. Gerard"s arrival at Madrid, M. Mirales had informed him that Congress would yield the navigation of the Mississippi, but that M. Gerard informed him that Congress had changed their resolution on that subject; that he had mentioned these obstacles to Mr Jay and Mr Carmichael, and it was probable that having done this, he had neglected or forgotten to give Mr Jay the notes in question. Mr Jay here reminded his Excellency, that the conference between them of the 2d day of June last turned among other points on these obstacles, and that they had then mutually expressed hopes that regulations calculated to remove them in a manner satisfactory to both parties might be adopted, and that the conferences respecting them were concluded by his Excellency"s promising to give Mr Jay notes of his sentiments on the proposed treaty. The Count admitted this, and made several observations tending to show the importance of this object to Spain, and its determination to adhere to it, saying, with some degree of warmth, that unless Spain could exclude all nations from the Gulf of Mexico, they might as well admit all; that the King would never relinquish it; that the Minister regarded it as the princ.i.p.al object to be obtained by the war, and _that obtained_, he should be perfectly easy whether or no Spain procured any other cession; that he considered it far more important than the acquisition of Gibraltar, and that if they did not get it, it was a matter of indifference to him whether the English possessed Mobile or not; that he chose always to speak his sentiments plainly and candidly on those occasions, for which reason he generally acted differently from other politicians, in always choosing to commit himself to paper, and appealing to the knowledge of the French Amba.s.sador and others, who had done business with him, for the proofs of this being the principle of his conduct. He concluded by saying he would give his sentiments in writing on this subject to Mr Jay.
Mr Jay made no reply to the Count"s remarks on the navigation, but observing, that being little acquainted with the practice of politicians, he was happy in having to treat with a Minister of his Excellency"s principles. He added, that there were many points necessary to be adjusted in order to a treaty; that they might proceed to agree upon as many as they could, and with respect to the others, he should state them clearly to Congress, and attend their further instructions.
Mr Jay then again turned the conference to the paper beforementioned, by observing to the Count, that it appeared from it, that the King also expected from Congress equivalents to the supplies formerly afforded, and also the expenses of the war, which it alleged had its origin from them. That as to the first he could only repeat what he had before said, that a general account of them was necessary.
That he neither knew the amount of them, nor the terms on which they were granted; that it was a transaction previous to his appointment; that on being furnished with the necessary information, he would transmit it to Congress, and wait their instructions; that an expectation of an equivalent to the expenses sustained by Spain in the war, was inadmissible on every principle. He read the pa.s.sage in question and remarked, that America could no more be justly chargeable with the expenses of the war sustained by Spain, than Spain could be justly chargeable with the expenses of the war sustained by America. The Count replied, that Mr Jay had mistaken his meaning, and that he urged it merely to show that as the States were deriving considerable advantages from very expensive operations on the part of Spain, that consideration should incline them to more condescension towards the latter.
Mr Jay a.s.sured his Excellency that he knew it to be the disposition of Congress to contribute all in their power to the success of the common cause, and that they would on every occasion give proofs of it, and among others, that he was confident they would permit his Majesty to export from thence, _during the war_, ship timber and masts for the royal navy, and would readily consent to such measures as might be proper and necessary for facilitating it. He further observed that having been informed by M. Gardoqui that his Majesty would like to take and finish a seventyfour gun ship now on the stocks in one of the eastern ports, on which it was said no work was doing, he would with pleasure write to Congress, and propose their transferring her to his Majesty at prime cost. That this previous step was necessary, as Congress might perhaps intend that vessel for particular services, but he was confident they would otherwise be happy in indulging his Majesty"s inclinations. The Count appeared pleased with this. He said, that with respect to timber they stood most in need at present of yards, and should be glad to obtain a supply of them from Congress. That as to the ship, he wished to be informed exactly of her present state, and the materials wanted to complete and equip her, which he observed might be sent from the Havana, and whether a crew of Americans could be had to navigate her there. Mr Jay replied, that though he was sure that Congress would readily give their aid in these and other matters interesting to Spain, yet he could not forbear reminding his Excellency as a friend, that public business done under the direction of public bodies was always more expensive than when done by individuals. That, therefore, he would submit it to his consideration whether it would not be more advisable to commit the management of those affairs to the agent, intended to succeed M. Mirales, who, by being on the spot, would have opportunities of acting on exact information, and in a manner more consistent with the views of his Excellency. The Count agreed in this opinion, and promised to communicate to Mr Jay his further intentions on this subject.
Mr Jay informed the Minister, that as his further stay here would now be unnecessary, and business called him to Madrid, he purposed to return there on Monday next. The Count concurred and the conference ended.
Congress will permit me to observe that many things in this conference are important, and demand instructions. I forbear to point them out, because they are obvious; and I take the liberty of giving this hint from a knowledge of the delays attending the proceedings of large bodies.
I returned to Madrid on the day appointed; and whether to accept or not to accept the bills became a very serious question. After reviewing all the reasons for and against it, which are numerous, and which Congress will readily perceive without a particular enumeration, I determined to put a good face on the business, and accept all that should be presented, which I have accordingly done, and am daily doing. What the event will be I cannot pretend to decide. All that I can say is, that my endeavors shall not be wanting to render it successful. The responsibility of the King will not produce much, and the difficulty of borrowing money has been increased, by the number of agents sent to Europe for that purpose by several of the different States, who I am told have imprudently bidden on each other.
M. Gardoqui returned to Madrid a few days after I did, and brought me word from the Minister, that instructions should be sent to their Amba.s.sadors in Holland and France, to a.s.sure in due form the responsibility of the King to such persons as might there incline to lend us money on the credit of it, and that the Minister would do the same here. He told me further, that the Minister hoped I would not be discouraged, nor consider this only on the dark side, for that it was still his intention to afford America every aid in his power. All this I ascribe to the exertions of America, and I am confident, that it will always be necessary for the United States to be formidable at home, if they expect to be respectable anywhere.
For my own part, I shall be disappointed, if I find Courts moving on any other principle than political ones, and, indeed, not always on those. Caprice, whim, the interests and pa.s.sions of individuals, must and will always have greater or less degrees of influence. America stands very high here, at present. I rejoice at it, though I must confess I much fear that such violent exertions may be followed by languor and relaxation. What the plan of this Court is with respect to us, or whether they have any, is with me very doubtful. If they have rejected all the overtures of Britain, why is Mr c.u.mberland still here? And why are expresses pa.s.sing between Madrid and London through Portugal? If Spain is determined that we shall be independent, why not openly declare us so, and thereby diminish the hopes and endeavors of Britain to prevent it? She seems to be desirous of holding the balance, of being in some sort a mediatrix, and of courting the offers of each by her supposed importance to both. The drawing of bills on me was considered as a desperate measure, prompted by our imbecility, and was a bad card to play at a time we were endeavoring to form a treaty, and when prudence demanded that the importance of Spain to us should not have been brought forward, or placed in such a glaring point of view.
One good consequence, however, has resulted from it. The cordiality of Spain has been tried by it. For I know of a certainty, that it was in her power easily to have made the loan we asked. Indeed, we shall always be deceived, if we believe that any nation in the world has, or will have, a disinterested regard for us, especially absolute monarchies, where the temporary views or pa.s.sions of the Prince, his Ministers, his women, or his favorites, not the voice of the people, direct the helm of State. Besides, from the manner in which the war is carrying on, it would seem as if it was the design of France and Spain that the longest _purse_, not the longest _sword_, should decide it.
Whether such be really their intention, or how far it may be politic, I cannot pretend to determine. This, however, is certain, that it would be putting the affair on a hard issue for us. It is also certain, that some respect is due to appearances and probable events, and we should be cautious how we spend our money, our men, or our public spirit, uselessly.
In my opinion, we should endeavor to be as independent on the charity of our friends, as on the mercy of our enemies. Jacob took advantage even of his brother"s hunger, and extorted from him a higher price than the value of the Mississippi even for a single dinner. The way not to be in _Esau"s_ condition, is to be prepared to meet with _Jacob"s_.
From what I can learn of the King"s character, I am persuaded, that a present from Congress of a handsome fast sailing packet boat would be very acceptable, and consequently very useful.
I am informed, and believe, that a loan from individuals in France is impracticable. Here nothing can be done in that way. What may be expected from the like attempts in Holland, I am unable to say.
I have received no answer to my letter to Count de Vergennes; the Amba.s.sador informs me, that the Count has written him on the subject, and the following is an extract from his letter.
Translation.
"I doubt whether I shall be able to render Mr Jay the service he requests of me, independently of what the Ministry has furnished the Americans in the course of the year. Dr Franklin is urgent for a million extra, to meet the drafts of Congress to the 31st of December. I am sensible how important it is to prevent them from being returned protested, but the difficulty is to find the means. I shall do my best in this exigency, but am not sure of success; beyond this, it would be impossible for me to go."
Dr Franklin has obtained some more money from his Court, and I am to have twentyfive thousand dollars of it; perhaps he may be able to advance more, but how much, I cannot say.
_November 1st, 1780._ No orders have as yet been given respecting the clothing. I have applied and reapplied, and have been promised and repromised. I employed Mr Harrison, at Cadiz, (with the Minister"s concurrence) to make the purchase, and he has several weeks been waiting for these orders.
General Gates is defeated, and Mr Laurens in the Tower. Our sky in this quarter is again darkened with clouds not in my power to dispel.
I had flattered myself with receiving before this time some regulations respecting American seamen.
The house of Le Couteulx have refused to continue their care of them, or to advance more money on that account. They complain that the American Captains under various pretexts refuse to give them pa.s.sages, without being paid for them. This is cruel.
The following are copies of their letter to me on the subject, and my answer.
LE COUTEULX & CO. TO JOHN JAY.
"Cadiz, October 3d, 1780.
"Sir,
"Our supplies for the American sailors amount at this day to ---- We will continue to render them every service in our power, but will confess to you ingenuously, that if you do not furnish us with an order from Congress, by which you empower us to oblige all American Captains, who come here, to take a certain number of people, in proportion to their bulk, free of pa.s.sage, and afterwards so many more on paying them a certain sum for their provisions, we can advance nothing; as all the Captains who come here never fail of showing good motives for not taking any of their fellow countrymen, without paying them a pa.s.sage, which forces us to let the people go on board neutral vessels; and instead of fulfilling your views of sending them back as soon as possible, this is a means by which they get still further from it, and a great many engage in the English service."
TO LE COUTEULX & CO.
"Madrid, October 15th, 1780.
"Gentlemen,
"I have been honored with your favor of the 3d instant, and am much obliged by your attention to the letter it enclosed.
You were not mistaken in supposing that the handwriting was mine. That letter was enclosed in one for Mr Harrison, and sent under cover to you.
"It gives me concern to find that you have so much trouble with American seamen, and I much lament that it is not in my power to comply with the terms on which alone you incline to continue it. I have written more than once to Congress on the subject, and submitted to their consideration the propriety of establishing proper regulations for the conduct of that business, but as yet I have received none. I presume that their attention has been so engaged by other matters of higher and more pressing importance, as not to have had leisure for making these arrangements. The refusal of American Captains to give pa.s.sages to their unfortunate countrymen is certainly unkind. I shall communicate to Congress, and I hope proper measures will be taken to remove that obstacle. At any rate, however, I cannot leave these unhappy captives friendless, in a strange country. The unfeeling treatment of the Captains rather stimulates than represses my commiseration, and, therefore, Gentlemen, as it is not convenient to you to proceed in your care of them, but on terms not in my power to comply with, I find myself reduced to the necessity of requesting that favor from others. For this purpose I have written to Mr Harrison of your city, and proposed his undertaking it, and have desired him in case he consented, to mention it to you. On that event I must beg the favor of you to give him such information and advice, as may be useful to him in the management of those affairs. Be pleased also to liquidate your accounts with him; they shall be paid without further delay.
"The attention and kind offices you have regularly paid to Americans, and the personal civilities that myself and family experienced from you, while at Cadiz, will always continue to excite my warmest acknowledgments, and lead me to omit no opportunity of convincing you of the esteem and regard, with which I am, Gentlemen, &c.
JOHN JAY.
I have before mentioned to Congress my difficulties as to correspondence. They continue, and I am obliged to give Colonel Livingston the trouble of carrying this letter to Bilboa, and delivering it with his own hands to the Captain of some American vessel. Congress might have letters from me every month, if orders were given to the Captains of the vessels bringing despatches for me, to send a trusty officer with them to me. I know that all are opened, and some suppressed, and I can think of no other way of avoiding these inconveniences. It is important that our correspondence be uninterrupted.
I have written very particularly, perhaps more so than may be prudent, but as I think it my duty, I pay no regard to consequences. If Congress will be equally well satisfied with less minute information, I wish to be told so, that their direction on this head may govern me in future. I cannot forbear again observing, that few of their proceedings remain long secret. I have very good authority for saying that copies of the letters, which pa.s.sed between the Committee and the late Commissioners in France, are now in the hands of a certain foreigner. How he got them I do not know, but such is the fact, and in my opinion it calls for more care in future.
If my letters meet with the same fate, my remaining here will become a useless expense to my country.
I think I have written everything material to enable Congress to know the exact state of their affairs here. If, however, there should be any questions to which an answer would be agreeable to Congress, I wish to be informed of them; for since I left America, I have made it a rule to be always in a capacity to render a reason for every part of my conduct, and state with accuracy every fact relative to it.
I have the honor to be, &c.
JOHN JAY.
FOOTNOTE:
[25] A full account of Mr c.u.mberland"s proceedings in Spain may be found in his _Memoirs_ published many years afterwards.