Chief Commandant DE WET: You can well imagine that our expenditure was as a drop in a bucket compared with yours. And if I am not mistaken, the Orange Free State had three-quarters of a million pounds when we commenced the war; and the expenditure by means of receipts began after that amount was exhausted. Your Excellencies must therefore admit that these receipts impose upon us the same obligation towards creditors as any other debt would have done.
General BOTHA: You have already many of our notes in your possession.
In one place, for instance, 50,000 were hidden and found by you.
General s.m.u.tS: I have already privately used the argument with Lord Milner that what we are now contending for has in principle already been conceded by Lord Kitchener. In the Middelburg proposals the payment of the Government notes was refused, but it was laid down that receipts to the value of 1,000,000 would be paid out, and if this should now be withdrawn it would certainly be a deviation from the Middelburg proposals. The payment of notes is something lawful, and stands on another footing; and I cannot understand how the payment thereof could have been refused in the Middelburg proposals, and therefore an agreement to pay them now is reasonable. But with reference to receipts, the payment of them was partially acceded to, and now it is withdrawn. I think that when we have arrived at such a stage in the negotiations as we have now, then a point such as this, which was as good as agreed upon, must no longer be a stumbling-block to a final agreement. I believe that this amount is small. I was with General de la Rey for one year in command of the half of the South African Republic. Accounts were kept of all receipts, and where the books are no longer in our possession they are in your possession. The issue of these receipts took place in proper order and under proper regulations, and books thereof were kept. As far as I have been able to go into the matter the amount of receipts is really small. And although Lord Milner recoils from the payment of an enormous amount which may be presented for payment if our proposal be accepted, yet I personally think that the fear is vain, and that the amount will prove to be much less than you probably think.
Lord MILNER: I do not think it is so much a question of the amount.
This payment of Government notes and requisition notes is, in my opinion, very reprehensible. I believe that in this respect I feel what the great majority of the British people feels, that it would rather expend a large sum after the war to improve the condition of the people that has fought against them, than pay a smaller amount towards the expenses incurred in fighting them. Whether this be right or wrong, it is a strong feeling with which you must reckon. We do not wish to pay the accounts of both parties, and the clause in the Middelburg proposals with reference thereto was, in my opinion, always one of the bad ones in that doc.u.ment. If something of this kind must be done, then I think that the payment of the Government notes is not so bad as the payment of the requisition notes. I put the point with reference to the payment of notes in this draft proposal, because I thought that if a choice had to be made between the payment of the one or the other, you would consider it better that the Government notes were paid. If it is considered better to go back to the Middelburg proposals on this point, then, however much I object to it, I would agree, if Lord Kitchener agrees.
General s.m.u.tS: I fear that we cannot agree to that, because we consider the Government notes indisputable.
General HERTZOG: I do not think that Your Excellency represents the matter fairly when you say, for instance, that you do not wish to pay the accounts of both parties. There is one matter with reference to the Orange Free State which we must specially note. We have contracted no loans and we have issued no Government notes. The notes we used were South African Republic notes, of which some were sent to the Orange Free State also. Our (Orange Free State) law is based on the principle that in case of war, all cost could be met by commandeering notes. This was acted on in the Orange Free State, and receipts in the usual form or in the shape of requisition notes were given. If we take this into consideration, and at the same time also the fact that we have always acted, and still act, as a party which is a lawful belligerent party, then we come and only say: from our side we give all that we possess, and ask the other party to acknowledge only that which if we had concluded a loan would in any case, in the shape of a public loan, have fallen on the British Government, which takes over everything from us. Lord Milner will thus understand that from our point of view it is of as much importance for us to obtain payment of these receipts as it will be for the South African Republic to obtain the taking over by the British Government of the liability of a loan concluded before the war. But I can even go further and give Lord Milner the a.s.surance that if we had also concluded a loan before the war, we could never have acted so economically as we have done by using receipts. That was also actually the reason why the Orange Free State never wished to conclude a loan beforehand, because now we have purchased only what was absolutely necessary for the day and for the circ.u.mstances. So that really Lord Milner will have to admit that we stand in the same position in respect to those who now hold receipts as we would have stood to any other creditor that we may have had before the war. I have already informally pointed this out to Lord Milner, and can now only express my agreement with what the Commandant General has said that this difficulty is almost insurmountable.
Lord MILNER: We can refer this to our Government; but your proposal is entirely in conflict with the Middelburg proposals, because in them it was absolutely refused to take over all State debts.
Lord KITCHENER: I wish that we could know the amount.
General DE LA REY: I issued Government notes to the value of between 20,000 and 40,000; but to what amount receipts were issued I cannot say.
Lord MILNER: There is really a compromise possible, namely, to allow these notes and receipts to be presented, and to introduce again the limit of 1,000,000.
Lord KITCHENER: Would that meet your difficulty?
General BOTHA: No.
Lord KITCHENER: Would 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 meet you? We want to have a limit, so as to know what to do.
Chief Commandant DE WET: It is impossible to fix an amount.
Lord KITCHENER: If you could fix a limit it would clear up the matter.
Chief Commandant DE WET: With that I fully agree. I appreciate your standpoint, but it is an absolute impossibility to name the amount.
Let us withdraw for a moment to discuss this point.
The meeting then adjourned and met again at 2.30 o"clock.
Chief Commandant DE WET: We have agreed to fix an amount of 3,000,000 for Government notes and receipts, which can be reduced _pro rata_ if this amount is not sufficient. We have drafted a clause to submit to you.
General s.m.u.ts read the draft, which is embodied in the last paragraph of Clause 11 of the draft agreement. (See p. 117.)
In reply to Lord Kitchener:
Chief Commandant DE WET said: The prisoners-of-war on the various islands who hold such notes ought also to have the opportunity for presenting them.
Lord MILNER: What is your next point? We now understand what your views are on this matter.
General BOTHA: Must I understand that we pa.s.s from this point?
Lord MILNER: That doc.u.ment contains your views which we now know.
General BOTHA: We must know what we must say to our delegates.
Lord KITCHENER: Is that the only point or will other points be raised?
General BOTHA: There is another point with reference to the protection of debtors. This is a serious, a vital question for us.
Lord MILNER: There must be a good understanding between us.... Let everything be embodied in one doc.u.ment.
General s.m.u.tS: Most of the debts incurred before the war will be payable at the conclusion of the war. And, if the debtors cannot pay, we are afraid it will be ruination for a large proportion of the population. And we would like to see that steps are taken to prevent this. If Lord Milner intends to take such steps we should like to be informed what they are.
Lord MILNER: I think it would be better if you made a proposal on this point.
General s.m.u.tS: Our proposal generally would be: that all interest which became payable during the war be added to the princ.i.p.al sum, and that the payment of the princ.i.p.al be put off until twelve months after the conclusion of the war.
Lord KITCHENER: Is it necessary to have this as a proposal?
General s.m.u.tS: If the Government is prepared to meet this difficulty it is unnecessary to make a formal clause of it in the draft agreement.
Lord MILNER: According to my view our Government makes certain promises in this doc.u.ment, and I am of opinion that all promises to which reference will later on be made must be embodied herein. Any matter on which it is desired to bind the Government must be in this doc.u.ment and not outside it. I will not say that I want further clauses, but above all I wish to prevent misunderstanding.
General s.m.u.tS: In that case we are prepared to propose a clause to meet this difficulty.
General BOTHA: We raise this point so that early measures may be taken if we come to an understanding. If a great portion of the population become subjects of His Majesty, it is to the interest of everyone, especially of the Government, to see that these people are not ruined.
They will be thrown on the Government, who will have to care for them.
If we do not take any steps now then speculators who have bought up debts will demand payment immediately after peace is concluded; and as soon as the courts of law are open they can sue the debtors, and we want to guard against that.
Lord MILNER: I agree with the Commandant General that this is the view which I take of the matter, and that as soon as these people become subjects of His Majesty they must be cared for. But I think it is neither necessary nor advisable to lay down in all particulars the way in which His Majesty"s Government must care for these people. I think that there is perhaps an idea--perhaps a natural idea--that because we have fought the burghers therefore when peace is concluded there will be a feeling of enmity towards them. The contrary, however, is the truth. From the moment hostilities cease our desire would naturally be to try to gain the confidence of the burghers, and to attend to the interests of the people. But if we must bind ourselves beforehand with reference to the manner with which we shall deal with all sorts of complicated legal questions, this will certainly lead to misunderstanding. Naturally if a certain amount of confidence is not reposed in us, that we shall try to be a just government, and try to keep the balance even between the various cla.s.ses of His Majesty"s subjects, then all I can say is this: Put in writing all that you can possibly think of, and let us submit it to His Majesty"s Government and see what they think of it.
Chief Commandant DE WET: I hope it will not be presumed that we sit here to bind the hands of His Majesty"s Government. Sufficient other points will continually crop up by means of which the Government can gain the confidence of the population. But with reference to the financial condition of the burghers who have been entirely ruined, we feel ourselves obliged to make some arrangement which will be a weapon in our hand when we return to the delegates.
General BOTHA: I do not quite understand Lord Milner. I did not understand from Chamberlain"s telegram that we should make new proposals to bind your hands. I understood that proposals should be made with the object and the wish to secure peace.
Lord KITCHENER: I do not think it quite necessary to embody this proposal in the doc.u.ment. It concerns a very complicated legal question, as to what the rights of creditors and debtors will be, and what the law in the Transvaal precisely is on this subject. I think that everyone may feel a.s.sured that the interests of the Boers will be protected equally well by the Government in every possible way, whether this point is actually stipulated or whether it is left over to the Government with the recommendation of this Commission to take the matter into serious consideration. I think that my suggestion is a better way of dealing with such a complicated question. Let the attention of the Government rather be drawn to it. I may be wrong, but as far as I know this will be an intricate question for lawyers, and it would take a long time to state it clearly. It is the desire of us all that you should go to the meeting of your delegates so equipped that you will be able to come to a decision; and I would therefore suggest that you be satisfied that the matter has been brought before us, and entered on the minutes of the meeting. That is, I believe, as far as it is necessary for you to go. The matter can then be taken into serious consideration, not only here, but also in England. And you can be perfectly a.s.sured that your interests will be considered in every possible way.
General DE LA REY: I think that the matter has been sufficiently brought to the notice of Your Excellencies, and that it need not be embodied in the draft contract, because by doing so one might possibly be infringing on legal principles.
Chief Commandant DE WET: I proceed from this standpoint: There are two parties, and the one ceases entirely to exist, and it is thus natural that that party cannot allow such a vital question to pa.s.s by un.o.bserved. And therefore I cannot approve of it that the matter be not inserted in the draft contract. It will not be necessary to bind the Military Government that exists at present and will continue to exist after the war.
Lord KITCHENER: But this question will have to be dealt with by the civil Government. It is a matter for lawyers, and will have to be submitted to them and demand much consideration.
General BOTHA: If hostilities are terminated now a burgher can be sued for debt incurred before the war. I prefer this request, because our law lays down that no burgher can be sued until sixty days after the conclusion of peace.
Lord KITCHENER: You may rest fully a.s.sured that when the war is over every burgher will have the absolute right to have his position taken into consideration on all points, and that his interests will be protected by the Government just as much, I believe, under the new as under the old _regime_.
General BOTHA: I understand that quite well; but the possibility exists that syndicates may be formed to buy up all debts, and the people be ruined before a single burgher is in a position to earn something or to establish his position.