I ask you, upon your oath, Mr. Stanley, if you did not express to him your entire concurrence in, and approbation of, the measures adopted by the magistrates?--I answer, upon my oath, that I do not recollect having said any such thing.
Can you tell me whether you expressed any disapprobation of the measures which it had been deemed necessary to adopt?--I have no recollection whatever of the conversation.
Then you mean to represent to us now, that your feelings upon the subject were so indifferent, that you cannot tell now, whether you approved or disapproved of these steps at the time?--I have not the most distant recollection of any conversation I had with Mr. Markland.
That is not an answer to my question. I ask you whether you mean to state that at this time, you don"t remember whether you entertained feelings of approbation or disapprobation of those steps?--I thought it was a dreadful occurrence; but I hoped that there were some grounds for it.
Mr. JUSTICE HOLROYD: You are speaking of what you thought?--It was in answer to the question.
Mr. SERJEANT HULLOCK: I am speaking of what you thought then. As I understand you, you cannot recall to your recollection the impression under which you laboured at the time you travelled home with Mr.
Markland?--I thought it a dreadful occurrence, but I hoped there were grounds for it.
Did you mention that to Mr. Markland?--I cannot recollect.
It is very important that I should endeavour to extract from you, Mr.
Stanley, without meaning the slightest disrespect to you, every fact within your knowledge on the subject; you say that after the meeting had been dispersed, the first cavalry which appeared on the ground was the Cheshire Yeomanry?--Not after the meeting had dispersed, but whilst in progress to dispersion.
Do you mean to state now, to the best of your recollection, that the Cheshire Yeomanry were the first cavalry advancing on the ground after that?--It depends on what you call the ground; the Cheshire Yeomanry were the first, after the Manchester cavalry, that advanced at the left.
Tell me, according to the best of your recollection, which of these troops came first upon the ground?--The Cheshire Yeomanry; but you will observe that, at this time, the disposition of the hustings occupied a good deal of my attention, and I did not expect the others.
The Cheshire Yeomanry came over broken and uneven ground?--I cannot tell.
I observe that you use the word "apparently" twice, in answer to two questions which were put to you, which were a repet.i.tion of the same question--whether the two lines of constables surrounded the hustings or not; I think you said they "apparently" did?--Apparently they did.
Mr. JUSTICE HOLROYD: Surround the hustings?--Apparently.
Mr. SERJEANT HULLOCK: Do you mean to state, then, that in your judgment the avenue which was formed by the two lines of constables extended from the house to the hustings?--At that time the impression on my mind was, and it now is, that it certainly did.
But of course you won"t swear that it did?--I cannot swear; I can only speak to the impression on my mind.
In the same way that you swear to the existence of brickbats and stones?--To the non-existence.
I think you say you saw Hunt come upon the ground?--I saw the barouche.
You saw the ladies and gentlemen both. Did you see any female?--I saw a female.
What was her use?--I have no conception of that.
Mr. JUSTICE HOLROYD: Of what?--
Mr. SERJEANT HULLOCK: I asked whether she was for use or show.
You did not know any of the parties inside?--I had not the most distant knowledge of them.
You had heard of Carlile?--I heard of him in London.
You have heard since he was in Manchester that day?--I have heard it to-day, in the course of another examination. I never heard it before.
Hunt, when he saw the cavalry coming, I think, intimated his knowledge--his cognisance of the fact--by desiring them to give three cheers?--I could not hear.
There was some cheering given?--There was a very loud cheer.
From the hustings?--From all the mob.
You say when he was addressing the mob, you did not hear his words, "but I think, whatever his words were, they excited a shout from those immediately about him, which was re-echoed with fearful animation by the rest of the mult.i.tude"?--Certainly, that is the impression on my mind; those were my own words.
It was tremendous--the shout?--It was not so tremendous as the shout with which Hunt was received on the ground; the first was the loudest shout.
And the most appalling?--The first, when Hunt was received on the ground; I never heard so loud a shout.
"Terrific," was your word?--I should say terrific.
You say that the people who were immediately contiguous to the hustings heard what Hunt said?--I cannot say.
You inferred that from their shouting?--Certainly.
Then that shout was re-echoed by the mob at a distance?--I conceived so.
What proportion, do you think, of the ma.s.s of the people, with their eyes up, and mouths open, looking at that man during the time, could hear one word he said?--I should think no one beyond ten yards from the hustings, in the bustle of such a day--that is guess.
I daresay it is a good guess, too; how do you think they would carry the resolutions at the outside, at the right flank, the left flank, and beyond the ten yards, upon the propositions made by this orator?--I have no opinion to give about that.
It certainly is a difficult point. It appeared to you that Hunt, as far as his voice could reach, had a pretty absolute control over his friends; they shouted as he spoke; it appeared that he was commander-in-chief?--The thing never occurred to me; I cannot speak positively.
Have not you an opinion that he was head and leader of the party?--My opinion certainly is, that he was.
And now, I will ask you this question, as a clergyman, and as a man of character, which I believe you to be--I ask you, upon your oath, whether, in your judgment, the public tranquillity and the peace of Manchester were not endangered by a mob of that description, composed in that manner, and having such a man as Hunt at its head--Hunt and Carlile, for instance?--Hunt and Carlile are dangerous people, and any mob under their control must be dangerous.
Re-examined by Mr. SERJEANT BLACKBURNE:
Do you know, Mr. Stanley, whether this meeting was under the command of either Hunt or Carlile?--No.
When you say there was a shout given on the Manchester Yeomanry coming into the field, was there any other shout besides that given by the mult.i.tude?--There was.
Whose shout was that?--The Manchester Yeomanry, the special constables, and the people round the pavement in front of our house.
May I ask you whether you were terrified by those shouts?--Personally, certainly not.
Mr. JUSTICE HOLROYD: Explain what you mean by that?--I myself was not alarmed about them.
Mr. SERJEANT BLACKBURNE: And whether it did not create terror and alarm?--Not to me individually, certainly not.
You have said that you presented a description of what you saw at the meeting, to some of your friends?--I did.
How soon was that written after the meeting?--I can scarcely say; I should think perhaps two months, but I cannot speak accurately. It was when the impression was clear on my mind.
Clear and fresh in your recollection. Will you have the goodness to tell me whether you heard or saw any person read the Riot Act?--I neither heard it read nor saw it read.