HYL. It is.
PHIL. But I do not find my will concerned any farther. Whatever more there is--as that I perceive such a particular smell, or any smell at all--this is independent of my will, and therein I am altogether pa.s.sive.
Do you find it otherwise with you, Hylas?
HYL. No, the very same.
PHIL. Then, as to seeing, is it not in your power to open your eyes, or keep them shut; to turn them this or that way?
HYL. Without doubt.
PHIL. But, doth it in like manner depend on YOUR will that in looking on this flower you perceive WHITE rather than any other colour? Or, directing your open eyes towards yonder part of the heaven, can you avoid seeing the sun? Or is light or darkness the effect of your volition?
HYL. No, certainly.
PHIL. You are then in these respects altogether pa.s.sive? HYL.
I am.
PHIL. Tell me now, whether SEEING consists in perceiving light and colours, or in opening and turning the eyes?
HYL. Without doubt, in the former.
PHIL. Since therefore you are in the very perception of light and colours altogether pa.s.sive, what is become of that action you were speaking of as an ingredient in every sensation? And, doth it not follow from your own concessions, that the perception of light and colours, including no action in it, may exist in an unperceiving substance? And is not this a plain contradiction?
HYL. I know not what to think of it.
PHIL. Besides, since you distinguish the ACTIVE and Pa.s.sIVE in every perception, you must do it in that of pain. But how is it possible that pain, be it as little active as you please, should exist in an unperceiving substance? In short, do but consider the point, and then confess ingenuously, whether light and colours, tastes, sounds, &c. are not all equally pa.s.sions or sensations in the soul. You may indeed call them EXTERNAL OBJECTS, and give them in words what subsistence you please. But, examine your own thoughts, and then tell me whether it be not as I say?
HYL. I acknowledge, Philonous, that, upon a fair observation of what pa.s.ses in my mind, I can discover nothing else but that I am a thinking being, affected with variety of sensations; neither is it possible to conceive how a sensation should exist in an unperceiving substance. But then, on the other hand, when I look on sensible things in a different view, considering them as so many modes and qualities, I find it necessary to suppose a MATERIAL SUBSTRATUM, without which they cannot be conceived to exist.
PHIL. MATERIAL SUBSTRATUM call you it? Pray, by which of your senses came you acquainted with that being?
HYL. It is not itself sensible; its modes and qualities only being perceived by the senses.
PHIL. I presume then it was by reflexion and reason you obtained the idea of it?
HYL. I do not pretend to any proper positive IDEA of it. However, I conclude it exists, because qualities cannot be conceived to exist without a support.
PHIL. It seems then you have only a relative NOTION of it, or that you conceive it not otherwise than by conceiving the relation it bears to sensible qualities?
HYL. Right.
PHIL. Be pleased therefore to let me know wherein that relation consists.
HYL. Is it not sufficiently expressed in the term SUBSTRATUM, or SUBSTANCE?
PHIL. If so, the word SUBSTRATUM should import that it is spread under the sensible qualities or accidents?
HYL. True.
PHIL. And consequently under extension?
HYL. I own it.
PHIL. It is therefore somewhat in its own nature entirely distinct from extension?
HYL. I tell you, extension is only a mode, and Matter is something that supports modes. And is it not evident the thing supported is different from the thing supporting?
PHIL. So that something distinct from, and exclusive of, extension is supposed to be the SUBSTRATUM of extension?
HYL. Just so.
PHIL. Answer me, Hylas. Can a thing be spread without extension? or is not the idea of extension necessarily included in SPREADING?
HYL. It is.
PHIL. Whatsoever therefore you suppose spread under anything must have in itself an extension distinct from the extension of that thing under which it is spread?
HYL. It must.
PHIL. Consequently, every corporeal substance, being the SUBSTRATUM of extension, must have in itself another extension, by which it is qualified to be a SUBSTRATUM: and so on to infinity. And I ask whether this be not absurd in itself, and repugnant to what you granted just now, to wit, that the SUBSTRATUM was something distinct from and exclusive of extension?
HYL. Aye but, Philonous, you take me wrong. I do not mean that Matter is SPREAD in a gross literal sense under extension. The word SUBSTRATUM is used only to express in general the same thing with SUBSTANCE.
PHIL. Well then, let us examine the relation implied in the term SUBSTANCE. Is it not that it stands under accidents?
HYL. The very same.
PHIL. But, that one thing may stand under or support another, must it not be extended?
HYL. It must.
PHIL. Is not therefore this supposition liable to the same absurdity with the former?
HYL. You still take things in a strict literal sense. That is not fair, Philonous.
PHIL. I am not for imposing any sense on your words: you are at liberty to explain them as you please. Only, I beseech you, make me understand something by them. You tell me Matter supports or stands under accidents.
How! is it as your legs support your body?
HYL. No; that is the literal sense.
PHIL. Pray let me know any sense, literal or not literal, that you understand it in.--How long must I wait for an answer, Hylas?
HYL. I declare I know not what to say. I once thought I understood well enough what was meant by Matter"s supporting accidents. But now, the more I think on it the less can I comprehend it: in short I find that I know nothing of it.
PHIL. It seems then you have no idea at all, neither relative nor positive, of Matter; you know neither what it is in itself, nor what relation it bears to accidents?
HYL. I acknowledge it.
PHIL. And yet you a.s.serted that you could not conceive how qualities or accidents should really exist, without conceiving at the same time a material support of them?