Lord Kitchener: "If you were in a position to give a limit, it would simplify matters."
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "I agree with that entirely, and I can quite understand the position in which you are placed. Yet it is absolutely impossible to a.s.sign an amount. Will you give us your permission to adjourn for a moment in order to discuss the matter?"
The meeting was then adjourned. It rea.s.sembled at 2.30 p.m.
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "We have agreed to fix on a sum of 3,000,000 for the government notes and receipts; their amount paid _pro rata_ can be lowered should this sum prove insufficient. We have drawn up an article to lay before the meeting."
General s.m.u.ts then read a draft which was inserted at the end of Article 11 in the draft agreement.
In answer to a question by Lord Kitchener, Commander-in-Chief de Wet said: "The prisoners of war on the different islands who are in possession of such notes should be given an opportunity of sending them in for payment."
Lord Milner: "What is the next point you wish to raise? We now understand what your position is."
Commandant-General Botha: "Am I to understand that you mean that we are getting away from the point in discussion?"
Lord Milner: "This doc.u.ment contains your view of the matter, so we are now aware of your idea."
Commandant-General Botha: "We must know what to say to the delegates."
Lord Kitchener: "Is this the only point you wish to bring forward, or are there others in addition?"
Commandant-General Botha: "There is another concerning the protection of debtors, which is a vital question for us."
Lord Milner: "We must not have any beating about the bush. Everything must appear in the doc.u.ment."
General s.m.u.ts: "Most of the debts contracted before the war will have to be paid after the war; and if the debtors cannot pay we are afraid that it will result in the ruin of a great part of the inhabitants. We should like to see steps taken to prevent this. If Lord Milner intends to take such steps, we should like to be informed what they are."
Lord Milner: "I think it would be best if you were to make a proposal on this point."
General s.m.u.ts: "Our proposal is roughly that all interest which became payable during the war should be joined to the princ.i.p.al, and that this should be payable six months after the war."
Lord Kitchener: "Is it necessary to make a proposal about this?"
General s.m.u.ts: "If the Government is prepared to meet us in this difficulty it will be unnecessary to place a formal clause in the draft agreement."
Lord Milner: "As I look at the matter, the Government is making certain promises in this doc.u.ment, and I consider that all promises to which a reference may be made later should appear in it. Everything to which the Government is asked to bind itself should appear in this doc.u.ment, and nothing else. I do not object to clauses being added, but I wish to prevent any possible misunderstanding."
General s.m.u.ts: "Well, in that case we are quite willing to propose such a paragraph."
Commandant-General Botha: "We waive this question, so that early measures may be taken to arrive at an understanding. In case a great number of the inhabitants become subjects of His Majesty, it is to every one"s interest, and princ.i.p.ally to that of the Government, that these people should not be ruined. They will be thrown upon the mercy of a Government, whose duty it is to study their interests. If steps are not taken to prevent it, speculators who have been buying up the liabilities will, as soon as peace is concluded, enforce them, and directly the Courts of Justice are opened they will issue summonses. Against this we have to be on our guard."
Lord Milner: "I agree with the Commandant-General. I think that as these people become subjects of His Majesty, then some provision will have to be made for them. But I believe it to be neither necessary nor advisable to point out in every particular case the way in which His Majesty"s Government has to provide for these people. I think that an idea exists--perhaps it is a very natural idea--because we have been fighting against the burghers that, therefore, after peace has been concluded we shall still retain a feeling of enmity against them. Just the opposite, however, is the truth. Our endeavour will naturally be, from the moment hostilities cease, to gain the confidence of the people and to do our best to promote their welfare. But if we have to bind ourselves beforehand in regard to the manner in which we shall deal with all sorts of involved legal questions, further misunderstandings are certain to occur. If you have not confidence in us--that we shall try to be a righteous Government, and to maintain the balance between the different cla.s.ses of His Majesty"s subjects--then you must put in writing every point that strikes you, and let them be laid before His Majesty"s Government, to see what they think about them."
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "I trust that you will not think that we are trying to tie the hands of His Majesty"s Government. There are many other points which will give the Government opportunity to win the confidence of the people. But about things which concern the financial position of burghers who are entirely ruined we feel it our duty to obtain definite promises. They will be a weapon in our hands when we return to the delegates."
Commandant-General Botha: "I do not quite understand, Lord Milner. I did not interpret Mr. Chamberlain"s telegram in the sense that we had to present new proposals in order to bind our hands further. I thought that proposals were to be made with a view to establishing peace."
Lord Kitchener: "I do not think that it is altogether necessary to include this proposal in the doc.u.ment. It concerns the very involved legal questions as to what the rights of creditor and debtor shall be, and as to what the law in the Transvaal may be on the matter. I think that every one can rest a.s.sured that the interests of the Boers will be protected by the Government in every way; and this, whether the point is put down now or left in the hands of the Government with the recommendation from this Commission to take the matter into serious consideration.
"I think that I know of a better way to deal with this involved question. Let this matter be brought under the consideration of the Government. I may be mistaken, but, as far as I can see, it will prove a very th.o.r.n.y question for the lawyers, and will take a long time before it can be clearly stated. It is, however, the wish of us all that you should return to the delegates equipped in such a way that you will be able to arrive at a decision. You may rest a.s.sured that the matter which you have brought before us has been included in the minutes of this meeting. I do not think that it is necessary for you to go further than this. The matter can now be carefully considered, not only here, but also in England; and you may be quite sure that your interests will receive, in every way, full consideration."
General De la Rey: "I think that the matter has been sufficiently discussed in the presence of your Excellencies, and that it need not be placed in the draft contract, for by so doing one might stumble on legal questions."
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "This is my point of view: There are two parties, and one of them is about to cease to exist. It is, therefore, natural that this party cannot allow a vital question to pa.s.s unnoticed.
It is for this reason that I cannot agree that this matter should be omitted from the draft contract. It will not be necessary that the military Government which now exists should continue after the war."
Lord Kitchener: "But the question will have to be settled by the Civil Government. It is a matter for lawyers, and must be laid before them, and will require much consideration."
Commandant-General Botha: "When hostilities are concluded it will be possible to summon a burgher for a debt contracted before the war. I put this request because our law states that no burgher can be summoned till sixty days have elapsed since the conclusion of peace."
Lord Kitchener: "You may entirely rely upon this, that whenever the war is over each burgher will have the absolute right to obtain consideration for his position in every way, and that his interests will be protected under the new as under the old regime."
Commandant-General Botha: "I understand that perfectly. But the possibility exists that syndicates may be formed to buy up all the debts, and the people may be ruined before a single burgher is in the position to earn anything or to have his position restored."
Lord Kitchener: "I quite agree with what the Commandant-General has said, and he is quite right to bring the question up. Yet I do not think that the draft contract is the best place in which to bring it forward.
Once peace is a fact, then it will be the duty of every one to draw the attention of the Government to what is required to aid the nation; but to bring up difficulties at the present moment, and to attempt to right them, seems to be an endless task, and one for which this doc.u.ment was not destined."
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "I am of opinion that this is a matter which should be settled by a proclamation; but I want to have as many weapons as possible in my hands when I return to the national delegates, and one of the first questions that will be asked me is this, "What guarantee do we possess that we shall not be ruined by our creditors?" It would not be much trouble to you to give us now a draft of the proclamation which would be issued as soon as peace is concluded."
Lord Kitchener: "But this would be something quite apart from the matter under discussion."
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "Yes."
Lord Milner: "What is the good then?"
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "It is such a vital question for us that you cannot take it amiss if we insist upon it, for we have to give up everything."
Lord Kitchener: "Of course, no one is blaming you."
Lord Milner: "But without any thought of blame, I must point out that the effect of their proposal would be that another clause would have to be inserted in the draft contract, undertaking that such a proclamation would be issued."
Lord Kitchener: "I think that as long as the delegates receive an a.s.surance that the Government will take this matter into consideration, in the interests of their subjects, whom they are bound to protect, that such an a.s.surance ought to suffice. There should be no written undertaking, but only a promise that the matter shall receive attention.
It is not advisable after the subject has been brought before the Government to press the matter further. The feelings of the burghers, moreover, in other ways than this, will be brought before Lord Milner."
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "If we wished to do so, we could insist upon many other little points, but we only bring up vital questions."
Lord Kitchener: "This is one of the questions which, when once brought under the consideration of the Government cannot be put aside; and you may tell the burghers that their interests will be protected as fully as is possible. I think that, in so complicated a matter, this ought to be sufficient for them. All that is debated here is recorded in the minutes, and these minutes will be considered not only here, but also in England. Are you satisfied with this?"
Commandant-General Botha: "Yes, so far as I am concerned."
Commander-in-Chief de Wet: "I also am satisfied."
Lord Milner: "I hope it is quite understood that if the matter is allowed to remain where it is, my Government will be under no obligation to treat the matter in any particular way."
Lord Kitchener: "But there is a pledge that the matter will be properly considered."
Lord Milner: "Yes, naturally; if we put anything down in writing. I am convinced that it is necessary to make it quite clear that this doc.u.ment must contain everything about which there is anything in the form of a pledge."