RIGHT HON. THOMAS GRENVILLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Dropmore, Feb. 1, 1821.
MY DEAR LORD B----,
The two brothers here are quite astounded at the importance which you and Charles attach to Lord Castlereagh"s attack upon the Government of 1806-7, and still more at the influence which both of you seem disposed to give to it in your conduct on the impending motions in Parliament. In the first place, it is to be observed that it is not fair dealing to expect Castlereagh to forbear from attacking Lord Grey, Lord Lansdowne, and Mr. Tierney, on their hostility to the Queen fourteen years ago, because he cannot do so without including Lord Grenville, as well as Lord Spencer and Lord Erskine, as members of that Government. I think Lord C---- fully ent.i.tled to reproach that inconsistency of conduct to Lord Grey and his colleagues--an inconsistency which in no degree applies to Lord Grenville; but even if it did, surely Lord C---- is not to be deprived of his legitimate warfare upon those to whom he is opposed, because Lord Grenville was in those days politically connected with them. But even supposing that you had reason in this respect to complain of Lord C---- (which I utterly deny), still it would be a most unjustifiable, and unbecoming, and culpable course, to suffer any such personal considerations to influence your conduct upon the great public questions which are impending. Those questions are to decide whether the Opposition is to be suffered, from its base alliance with the Radicals and with the Q----, to take violent possession of the Government, in order to overturn the whole system of our const.i.tution; to bring in annual or triennial Parliaments; to do little short of introducing universal suffrage; to disband the army, which now holds the Radicals in check; and, very probably, to let loose Bonaparte, under pretence of mitigating his confinement. These are some of the first fruits of what is to be expected from Lord Tavistock"s motion, if, by its success, it removes the present Government; and can you look at any part of this picture, and yet suffer any personal considerations to weigh for one moment in your mind, while such superior considerations are at stake? I could have added much upon the disgrace you would throw on Lord Grenville, if he could be suspected, as he would, of being a party to so much personal irritation in questions of the very vital existence of the const.i.tution of the country. But he writes himself.
The next letter commences with a reference to the judgment pa.s.sed by Judge Bailey on that popular leader, Sir Francis Burdett. It was merely a fine of 2000, and imprisonment for three months in the King"s Bench:--
MR. CHARLES W. WYNN TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Whitehall, Feb. 10, 1821.
I agree with you in considering the sentence on Burdett--a sentence so unexpected as to call for the plaudits of all the Radicals who surrounded the Court, and the congratulations of his friends--as most calamitous; and, unfortunately, it is not the first instance in which the Court of King"s Bench, or rather the present judges who preside in it, have shown that they are not proof against popular clamour and the apprehension of personal danger. On the reduction of the army, I am by no means so sure that I agree with you. I have not the means of estimating the exact quantum of troops which may be requisite for preserving the internal tranquillity of the country, but am inclined to believe that the salutary operation of the Bills of 1819, and the increase which has taken place in the Yeomanry, do afford a reasonable expectation that a less number of regulars will now be sufficient than were before required--and unless I was quite satisfied to the contrary, I am not prepared to complain of any measure which tends to alleviate the financial pressure.
It is quite true that there are symptoms of some understanding between Castlereagh and Peel, though the speech of the latter plainly stated his disapprobation on several points of the conduct of Government. The most decisive is his abandonment of Pitt"s old Hill Fort, which he had occupied, and returning to his former position in the rear of the Treasury Bench.
The debate last night was much more decidedly in favour of Government than either of the former--at least, so it appeared to me; but perhaps I may be prejudiced, from having taken a part in it. Wilberforce made a remarkably feeble, vacillating speech, and at last turning the scale in favour of the motion by the make-weight of popular opinion, which he allowed to be formed on false and mistaken principles. Lamb spoke most strongly against the motion, but concluded by voting in its favour, because the question had so much disturbed the country, that the true honour would belong to the party which first conceded it. Acland"s was one of the most impressive and efficient speeches I ever heard. And on this state of the debate, Castlereagh most wisely, and to the great satisfaction of the House, allowed us to go to a division at a quarter before one, instead of keeping us till six or seven, which would have been the inevitable consequence of his speaking. To our great amus.e.m.e.nt, Creevey, Fergusson, Wilson, Lambton, and Sefton were shut out, and afterwards received the inquiries of their friends whether it was not from scruples of conscience, and being unable to make up their minds, that they had abstained from voting.
The party is certainly unlucky; for on a preceding night, Lord Carhampton and Luke White paired off and went comfortably to bed, without finding out that they were on the same side. We now, I trust, are rid of the Queen"s business, though I still fear we must have one night on the Milan Commission; but n.o.body has yet given notice of a motion on the subject.
I was rather surprised on Monday night to find Ministers so weak as to be totally unable to risk a division on Davie Gilbert"s proposal of throwing Grampound into the Hundreds, and that afterwards, when joined by us and by several members from the Opposition, they were beaten two to one; much, I think, owing to Ward"s speech. I have now, I think, sent you gossip enough for one day.
Ever yours,
C. W. W.
Have you heard that a match is declared between Lord Dartmouth and Lady Frances Talbot? To see them together will be somewhat like Lord Bulkeley and Lord Abingdon at the Encoenia.
One of the princ.i.p.al subjects of political interest was the Catholic question, brought forward in the House of Commons on the 2nd of March by Mr. Plunket, in a Committee of the whole House; and a Bill for the Emanc.i.p.ation of the Catholics was introduced by him on the 7th of the same month, the second reading of which was debated on the 16th, and carried by a majority of 11.
LORD GRENVILLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Hanover Place, March 5, 1821.
It is extremely difficult, I believe, even for those most intimately acquainted with the present composition of the House of Commons, to antic.i.p.ate the final result of the Catholic question.
Many things that one hears would lead one to be very sanguine in one"s hopes; but then, the difficulties are so great of steering between groundless fears on one side and groundless jealousies on the other, and the means are so great which are possessed by the enemies of conciliation on both sides, that every step taken in the business is surrounded with danger of failure.
Plunket talks of dividing the measure into two Bills, if he can get Castlereagh to consent to it--one of concession, the other of security; a most wise project, if it can be accomplished. His exertions have been beyond all praise, and the tone of moderation which he has given to the discussion must do great good, whatever be the result.
I am sorry there was a necessity for giving so much time; but I trust, after the second reading, it will proceed, if at all, with better expedition.
In the House of Lords, the Chancellor and the Bishops will certainly persevere in their resistance; but if there really is that change of course on this subject in higher quarters, which common prudence so loudly calls for, I should not at all fear their opposition.
All will depend on that. But indeed I do not see why Liverpool himself should (on the grounds on which he has always argued the question) be debarred from taking the wiser resolution to acquiesce in such a measure if it comes up from the House of Commons, rather than to set the House of Lords singly to stand in the breach against the claims and wishes of five-sixths of the population of Ireland.
Whether he will be clear-sighted enough to see this course, which I think lies plain before him, or whether he has stoutness enough to adopt it, I know not; but sure I am of what he _ought_ to do.
The King must certainly, if he means to go to Ireland in May, mean to carry this boon with him; and if he does, his visit will be productive of more good than one could easily describe. If not,--then, for _good_, read _mischief_.
I send you back your Neapolitan news. My only wish is that the matter was settled, and had been so long ago.
"Lord Lansdowne writes word to a correspondent here," says a contemporary letter-writer, "that everything in England has fallen in price, except the Grenvilles. They certainly have made an excellent bargain, in proportion to their talents, reputation, and numerical strength. Were Lord G---- still in the full vigour of life and exertion, one should not be surprised at any sacrifice made to obtain so powerful a support; but by his retirement from public affairs, one would have thought that the value of the family was reduced near to that of the half-dozen votes they can bring into a division."[61]
[61] Lord Dudley"s "Letters," p. 301.
The first of the next series refers to a private quarrel that at the period excited a great deal of notoriety:--
RIGHT HON. THOMAS GRENVILLE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Cleveland Square, March 13, 1821.
MY DEAR LORD B----,
n.o.body can be more sensible to your kindness in what you have done respecting Henry, than Charles is; neither do I find in him more reluctance respecting his beginning a communication with Lord C---- than is quite natural, and than I think you would yourself approve.
The real truth is, that Charles"s opinions certainly do not tend as decidedly and as professedly as yours have done to intercourse with the present Ministers, and least of all, perhaps, with Lord C----.
It was very kind in you, therefore, to take upon yourself the communication by which you intended to do a service to Henry; and when you had so determined, I think you took the least objectionable course in applying yourself to _Lord L----_. By so doing, you effected the very amiable and kind purpose which you had in view, of a.s.sisting Henry"s wishes without breaking in upon Charles"s reluctance to pledge himself farther than he could conscientiously bring himself to do. Having, therefore, yourself taken the step of applying to _Lord L----_, whenever a renewed application becomes necessary by a new opening in the diplomatic line, or by the expectation of one, the easy and natural course of your kindness will be to renew that application yourself to _Lord L----_. If, on the other hand, Charles was to apply himself personally to _Lord C----_ in the present stage of the business, he will be as much and as entirely committed as if he himself had made the original application; and your kindness will not have spared him the embarra.s.sment of becoming a suitor, and of incurring an obligation, where he wishes to stand free of any, except to you. In truth, as far as I understand the present position of the business, it does not seem to me that, after so recent a promise to you from Lord L---- and Lord C----, any renewed application from you or from any of Henry"s friends is likely to produce anything except a renewal of the same favourable disposition, whenever occasion should arise.
If any circ.u.mstances should produce, or even render probable, any new opening in the missions, then will be the natural moment, not for Charles"s application to Lord C----, but for the renewal of yours to _Lord L----_. At the same time, I am sure Charles will not be unnecessarily reluctant or adverse to any communication with Lord C---- that may become necessary, or may naturally arise out of your request to Lord L----, and out of such circ.u.mstances as may require discussion; but though the present state of things seems to promise no advantage in any renewed application from you, whenever it does, I am sure you will find Charles heartily and sincerely grateful to you for your warm and disinterested kindness to his brother.--I should distrust, as you do, the result of the Catholic Bill, if every day did not furnish some new evidence which, if correct, seems to promise a more favourable result. Yesterday, I heard of Lord Fife having said that the K---- had told him he did not wish to influence his opinions; and to-day I hear from good authority that Bloomfield has written within these four days, that the K---- will go to Ireland with the certainty of greater and more general popularity than could _have been_ conceived.
The language of the opponents, too, is colder and flatter than it has ever been; rumours--I know not how true--of the Duke of Rutland hesitating on the question, and daily talk of other unexpected votes. Perhaps these rumours are exaggerated; but still they add to the general tide and current of opinion as to the probable success, and that opinion may go far to procure the result that is so much to be wished.
My own notions are, that there should be no exclusion in the Bill except that of the Lord-Lieutenant, who ought to be as much excluded there as the K---- is here. I would not exclude the Chancellor, because I think first it is a breach of the great principle of the measure; and secondly, because it will be an irritating bar to and exclusion of the whole legal profession in Ireland, who are the most influencing and formidable body in that whole country, in all times, and on all questions of public agitation. I would, therefore, leave the Seals open to them, and satisfy the Protestants, as to all ecclesiastical dangers, by special commissions and clauses for the objects of their apprehensions. But for all practical good, one must learn to be satisfied with what can be reached, when what we desire is out of our reach. Till this measure pa.s.ses, neither England nor Ireland can be safe.
Yours ever most affectionately,
T. G.
DR. PHILLIMORE TO THE MARQUIS OF BUCKINGHAM.
Whitehall, March 14, 1821.
MY DEAR LORD,
I feel, indeed, much indebted to your Lordship for your letter of the 11th inst., and we are all grateful to you for your criticisms on the Bills; and this I should have told you before, but that I was entirely occupied by professional business throughout yesterday morning, and, besides, I wished to consult with Lord Grenville (with whom I was engaged to dine yesterday) as to the policy of some of the amendments you have suggested. Some are obviously improvements on the face of them. The difficulty, as I foresaw, arises as to the insertion of the additional words to express, "That no one shall exercise the function of a bishop who shall not have been approved by the King." We discussed this point fully last night, and Lord Grenville is decidedly of opinion (and this he desired me to mention to you, as from him) that if we venture upon it we shall _shipwreck_ the whole measure. By having the negative of the King to the nomination of any person whose loyalty and good conduct may be suspected, we surely have, in substance and effect, all the security which can be necessary for the protection of the Protestant establishment; and it would be a sad pity to hazard a measure which, to a certain extent, at least, is happily advanced, for the sake of expressions, preferable certainly, but not essential for our security. I have been with Plunket on the subject this morning, and his view coincides with Lord Grenville"s entirely. He says it would be laid hold of immediately by the enemies to the measure amongst the Catholics, and made the source of much discontent and irritation, and that the rather because the Bill has been transmitted to them in its present shape, as the measure to be proposed on this branch of the subject. I should add, that Plunket expressed the greatest anxiety to concur in any suggestion which came from you.
You suggest the exclusion of Roman Catholics from the office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland; but it does not seem to me--and, what is of more consequence, it does not seem to Lord Grenville--that the same reasons exist to exclude them from this office which may be urged against their filling the office of Lord High Chancellor.
The Irish Chancellor has not, _virtute officii_, the disposal of Church patronage, nor is he called upon to advise the King in any way respecting it; and the same principle, therefore, which might be applied to exclude them from this function, might be put forward as a ground for their exclusion from the functions of any judge. To say the truth, Lord Grenville is so great an enemy to the principle of exclusion, that he suggested, instead of the clause as it now stands, that no Lord Chancellor should dispose of any Church preferment till he had subscribed the Thirty-nine Articles; but upon suggesting this alteration, we found it would raise such a storm from the Dissenters (who are already moving in all directions against the measure), that there was no option but to abandon it.
It will be a satisfaction to you to know that Lord Grenville has been consulted throughout, and has himself revised and corrected the Bills. He appears exceedingly anxious for the success of them; and certainly, when we reflect how much his public life has been connected and mixed up, as it were, with the Catholic question, we cannot be surprised at the exultation he would naturally feel at witnessing the complete triumph of opinions he has so long and so uniformly held.
The anti-Catholic country gentlemen complain of the apathy of the country; and the King has told Lord Fife he hopes he will vote according to his fancy on the question. These are favourable symptoms.