5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the settling time?-Yes.
5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally kept under the head of a company account in name of the master of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co.
5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for the boat"s crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes; we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger; but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa, the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can always be referred to.
5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe.
5632. The boat-hire is generally charged in the company account; that is to say, all the members of the company are liable for the boat-hire?-Yes.
5633. Do a large proportion of the men whom you employ in fishing have shop accounts at your store?-Yes, a large number of them; in fact, the most of them have accounts with us more or less.
5634. That is, apart from the mere outfit which they require for going to the fishing, they are supplied with goods for their families, both soft goods and provisions?-Yes.
5635. Are these transactions generally carried on upon a system of credit?-Yes, it is credit for the most part; but some men who have money just pay down the money for what they want, and it is not entered in our books.
5636. Are you in the habit of giving a discount when they pay down money?-Yes, if the amount is worth discounting.
5637. Can you say what is the average amount of fisherman"s share for the take of fish in any one year?-I was making a calculation of it this morning, and I think that, taking all the fishermen we have employed just now, their takes of fish for the whole year would average about 12, 5s.
5638. Are you able to say what deductions would fall to be made from that sum in the case of an ordinary fisherman?-There would be deducted from it specially his proportion of the boat-hire, and the yearly payment or hire for his lines. Some of them pay a yearly payment on their lines, while others hire them. There will be about 22s. deducted for that, and that is the only special charge that has to be deducted, except what he has got for his living.
5639. Are these special charges due by the individual fishermen or by the boat"s crew?-For the lines in all my boats they are due by each individual, but the boat hire is due by them as a company.
5640. You spoke of the lines being got by the men either on hire or by making a yearly payment?-Yes, a yearly payment equal to the hire which they would pay if they were hiring the lines. For instance, the pay for the hire of one of these fishing lines is 8d. a year; but instead of taking that as hire, we credit it yearly to the men, and so soon as it has liquidated the value of the lines they become the fisherman"s own property; whereas, if a man gets his outfit and goes to the fishing this season, and does not feel inclined to go another year, then he has only paid the hire, and the lines must be returned to me.
5641. But if a man begins to make a yearly payment by way of purchasing the lines, he is obliged to go on?-He is not obliged to go on if he chooses to give up the fishing altogether; but even in that case it is an advantage to them to have the lines, because they can always make use of the old ones in some way or other.
5642. In the case of hired lines and of that sort of purchase by instalments, where does the risk lie?-The risk lies with the fisherman in both cases.
5643. If the hired lines are lost, he pays for them?-Yes.
5644. And if they are lost while he is buying them, he pays for them also?-Of course; but if he is hiring a boat, and it is lost at sea, he is not liable for that boat.
5645. But he would be liable for the lines in that case?-Yes.
5646. I don"t quite see the distinction between the two cases of hiring lines and buying them by instalments in the way you have described. Does it not come to be the same thing to the fisherman in the end in both cases?-No; if he continues to hire them, then, when the lines are unfit for prosecuting the fishing any longer, he must return them to me, and I can make something out of these old lines-perhaps 6d. a line; whereas, if he has been buying them by instalments, they belong to the man himself; and if the lines are of good quality, and he has taken care of them, he may be able to use them for a season or two after the whole payments have been made for them. I have some fishermen who have used their lines at the deep-sea fishing in that way for two seasons after the usual yearly payment has completed the value of them.
5647. The deductions you have now mentioned apply to every case, but at settlement there may be other deductions for the amount of furnishings supplied to the men during the season?- Yes.
5648. Is that the only other deduction which falls to be made in the ordinary case?-Yes. If the man has been running an account, of course that must be deducted.
5649. Are you in a position to say what the ordinary amount of a fisherman"s account at your shop will be in the course of a season?-Perhaps the ordinary amount will be from 4 to 5.
Some of them will be a great deal more than that; whereas there are some men fishing to me who won"t have 3s. worth out of my shop in the course of a season.
5650. The amount differs according to the individual?-Yes, and according to his needs.
5651. Is there a large proportion of your fishermen who close the year somewhat in your debt?-Yes, a considerable number, but not nearly so many as there were some years ago.
5652. Has that been in consequence of a succession of good years?-I think so, but there has been a great change in the habits of the people. I think they are generally more careful now than they were.
5653. Are you able to say from your own observation whether men who are so much in your debt deal more at your shop than others?-With some of the men who fish for me, the greatest difficulty I have is to prevent them from dealing,-not to get them to buy goods, but to get them not to buy them. Of course there are black sheep in every flock, and I have men who, after receiving considerable supplies from my shop, and when I have found it quite unreasonable to allow them to go further, turned round upon me and said, "Well, if you won"t give me what I want I will go to [Page 140] some other body and fish for them." Of course these are exceptions.
5654. They say that to you when they are considerably in your debt?-Yes; and when they think there is no chance of getting any more.
5655. Then it is not an advantage to a fish merchant or to any merchant, as has been alleged, to have a number of people in his debt?-Certainly not. The best fishermen are those who are not in debt. It is a very sad thing to have to settle with a man who has no money coming to him.
5656. Can you get as many fishermen to engage with you as you want, although they should not be in your debt?-Yes; I can get a man to fish for me more readily who is not in my debt than one who is in my debt. A man who is in my debt will, make all the excuses and trouble in the world, but with a man who is not in debt there is no trouble at all. He sees his way clearly, and it is for the purpose of saving something for his family that he goes to the fishing.
5657. Is it a common subject of complaint with your fishermen, that the price of the fish is not settled till the end of the year?- They do speak of that sometimes; and yet, since the question was mooted in consequence of reports being circulated through the country with regard to the investigation, which you are now prosecuting, they are all up in arms for fear any change should be made.
5658. Have they come to you objecting to any change being made?-Yes, a great number of them have done so.
5659. On what grounds?-Because they think that a change could not be made for the better. For instance, if an arrangement was made to pay them for their fish every week, three-fourths of them could not go to the fishing at all, because they have neither boats nor lines, nor could they get the necessary supplies to enable them to go. Then the price which they would receive for the fish would necessarily be smaller. They have had experience of that at the fishing stations where there was compet.i.tion, this one trying to barter or smuggle a few fish, and the other smuggling a few fish.
They get the very highest price for them which is given at that time; but then at settlement, even with some of my men who have sold a few fish, I have had to pay up the difference between the price they received at the station and the current price which was being paid at the end of the season.
5660. That was only in the case where a higher current price was given at the end of the season than was paid for the fish while the season was running on?-Yes.
5661. Have you been often asked to pay a difference of that sort?-I do it voluntarily.
5662. Was that for fish which you did not get at all?-No, not for what I did not get; that I had nothing to do with.
5663. But you did not get smuggled fish?-Yes, there are smuggled fish sold to me. My boats sell smuggled fish to another curer, and boats belonging to another curer sell fish to my factor.
5664. But why should you pay the difference to your own men upon any fish which they have smuggled to other curers?-It is not upon fish they have smuggled that I pay the difference, but there is a system among my fishermen of having what is called a bucht line. That is a line of his own, the fish caught by which are sold by him in order to supply himself with any small article he requires during the fishing. They settle for these fish at the fishing station; and if the price which is given at the settlement is larger than what they have got at the station, I pay them up the difference.
5665. Is that bucht a device for having a little cash in hand?-A bucht is the term which they give to one of these fishing lines.
5666. But is it a device for having some special wants supplied during the course of the season, and before the settlement comes round?-It is just a fancy they have; because if all their fish went one way, and they asked the money, they would get it. It is merely a thing that has been practised among them for many years, and the practice has been allowed to continue.
5667. Is that a practice in your business only, or is it generally done in Shetland?-It is only done by some. There are many of our men who do not do it, but some of them do it.
5668. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash paid in advances to the fishermen in the course of the year and before settlement? Do you pay a large sum in that way at your stations?-I should fancy that over the whole of my fishings 200 would cover the whole amount that is paid in advances during the season.
5669. Your fishings are at Voe, Papa Stour, Stenness, and the Skerries?-Yes.
5670. At each of these places you have a factor and a shop for supplying goods?-Yes; we must have a store.
5671. Are these stores kept open all the year round?-At Papa and the Skerries they are: at Stenness the store is only kept during the summer fishing season.
5672. And the shop there only supplies the fishermen with what they need for their own personal use, and not with what they require for their families?-Just so; but sometimes those men who have their families in the neighbourhood get a little for them also,-a little tea, and such as that.
5673. You say the amount of the shop account will be from 4 or 5 on an average; so that, after making other deductions, that will leave something like 4 or 5 payable in cash to an ordinary man at the end of an ordinary season?-Yes; but there are a great many of them who have a great deal more than that to get.
5674. Of course the amount differs according to the seasons, and according to the individual; but do you think that would be a fair average?-I should say that about 6 might be taken as an average of the amount paid in cash.
5675. Does that apply to all your stations?-Yes, to them all.
5676. What is the number of fishermen upon your books altogether?-I should fancy about 400.