12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton"s report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions which he had formed when he was a boy.
12,527. Was the state of things different in Shetland when he was a boy from what it is now?-Yes, it was a good deal different; I think we are improving. I think there are more of the fishermen now who are free to deal as they choose. I think they have a much greater outfit in every way for fishing, and much better returns; and the fishermen, as a cla.s.s, are living better and wearing better than they did in those days.
12,528. Is there anything else in the report that you wish to correct?-I consider that the report is altogether wrong.
12,529. I should like specific statements about that, because gentlemen have come to contradict the report before and have gone through it sentence by sentence?-I consider that Mr.
Hamilton was going out of his way altogether in making that report.
12,530. Still it might be correct, for all that?-It might be; but it appears to have some weight as coming from the Board of Trade, whereas Mr. Hamilton could have no opportunity of knowing these things from personal knowledge or of judging for himself.
12,531. The point on which he had been directed to inquire was as to the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling vessels?-Yes; and if he had confined himself to that, he would have been doing what was quite right; but all these general remarks about the Shetland System are very wide of the mark, and must have been got from hearsay, because many of them are incorrect. He says, for instance, "Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he will probably never get any employment again." I look upon that as an ill-natured, unfounded remark.
12,532. Was there any foundation for that in time past?-I don"t believe there was any foundation for such a statement at any time.
12,533. Have you any personal knowledge that enables you to contradict that statement, or have you any knowledge of the matter different from the hearsay knowledge which you attribute to Mr.
Hamilton?-I am much better able to judge of it, because I have been mixed up with these men every day for the last thirty years, and if such a thing had taken place I would have heard of it.
12,534. Have you ever made any inquiry among them as to whether that statement was correct?-I have made the most minute inquiries as to how they were treated, and they volunteered statements about how they got on, and why they went to one agent rather than to another.
12,535. What sort of reasons did they give for that?-Of course they had their own reasons for preferring one agent to another.
For instance one man thought he got his supplies cheaper from a particular agent, and he went to him.
12,536. Did the reasons they gave for preferring one agent to another, all a.s.sume that the man got his supplies from the agent who engaged him?-I have been speaking now of what took place in the trade formerly. For some years back I have not heard anything about supplies at all. They say they get their month"s advance now in money.
12,537. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the men do get their supplies from the agent still?-I believe they get them to a very small extent.
12,538. You mean to a small extent, compared with what was the case in former times?-I believe so.
12,539. Is that belief rounded upon the statements of the men themselves, or is it simply from hearsay?-I have been told so by the men.
12,540. Have they told you that they get smaller outfits now than they did formerly, or smaller supplies from their agents?-The cla.s.s of men who go now to that fishing are not the same as they used to be; they do not require the supplies which the green hands used to get.
12,541. You mean that they do not require so large outfits?-Yes.
12,542. But if they are men with families they probably require much larger supplies for their families during their absence. I suppose they get these supplies from the agents?-I know that in some cases they do; but I know that my firm supplies many of the families of men who go to Greenland, and they pay us in money when they come back and have got their settlement.
12,543. Has your firm a larger business in the way of supplying the families of fishermen who go to Greenland than it formerly had before these regulations of the Board of Trade were introduced?- I think so. I think that formerly the men confined themselves more to the agents for their supplies.
12,544. Are you aware whether at any time the men were under any obligation to ship with one agent more than with another for the Greenland voyage: have you [Page 311] heard anything to that effect from the men?-No. I never heard them speak about being compelled in any way with regard to the Greenland trade.
12,545. I do not speak of compulsion; but have you heard of them being expected or obliged in any way, or of influence being used?-I never heard of them being influenced in any way. I don"t think that was ever the practice with regard to the Greenland trade.
12,546. Is there any other pa.s.sage in the report to which you wish to refer?-Mr. Hamilton says, "This is merely one phase of the truck system in Shetland, on which are also based arrangements with the crews of coasting and home trade vessels, of the few foreign going vessels, of the Faroe and Iceland fishing vessels, and of the large fleet of fishing boats. Some of the seamen and fishermen feel, and bitterly complain of, the bondage of the system; but, as a rule, the character and habits of the natives have become so a.s.similated to it, that they are either unconscious of its existence, or are reconciled to its working, that they would probably themselves be averse to any change; for although they may have no option but to work for one master at such remuneration in goods as he may see fit to give, yet they feel that in bad seasons he will not let them starve." That is a fearfully overdrawn picture.
12,547. I suppose your firm has often had occasion to make large advances in a bad season in order to carry your fishermen through?-Yes.
12,548. And these advances have been repaid by the men from the produce of the following seasons?-Yes; but I deny that there are such hardships as are spoken of here. We have often had to advance a fisherman for perhaps two years" rent, and he had to remain in debt. His fishing was not sufficient to meet his requirements.
12,549. In that case the man would usually continue to fish for you?-Yes. He usually continues until he has wrought off his debt.
12,550. Have you known men in that position who attempted to dispose of their fish to other employers?-I cannot say that I have.
12,551. Have they always continued with you until their debt was wiped off?-They continued from year year at any rate.
12,552. But they did not leave you in these circ.u.mstances?-No; as a cla.s.s, they are much too honest for that.
12,553. Have you ever had an occasion, when a man came to you from another employer, to become responsible to that employer for a debt due by the fisherman to him?-No, I don"t think we ever undertook anything of that kind.
12,554. Have you been in the converse position of obtaining payment of a debt due to you from a fisherman who changed his employment?-I don"t recollect any case of the kind.
12,555. Does any arrangement exist between your firm and any other by which you undertake the debts of that firm, and they undertake yours in such cases?-No; we have never taken fishermen into our employment under such circ.u.mstances. Then Mr. Hamilton says: "The employer has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour, leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving." That is a state of things which I know nothing about, and I don"t believe it exists.
12,556. If a merchant has full power to fix the price of the fish, and if he also fixes the price at which he sells his goods, and the fisherman has no other place where he can get credit for the supplies which are necessary for his existence, is it not conceivable that that state of matters might be abused?-It is conceivable, and there may be a few cases of that kind; but to speak of that as being the rule, is not correct.
12,557. Have you ever heard complaints from the men engaged in the Greenland fishery that they could not get their wages settled for at an earlier period?-I never heard of any difficulty in that way.
12,558. Have you heard them complain that the agent had contrived to keep them in his debt?-I never heard of such a thing.
Often when they had money to pay to us, they have said they had not been in for their wages, and that they were going; but they never said there was any difficulty in getting it, if they only went to Lerwick for it.
12,559. Is all the rest of Mr. Hamilton"s report correct except those pa.s.sages you have referred to?-Certainly not. I do not agree with it at all. There is shade of truth about some things stated in it, but it is overstated.
12,560. Do you differ from this statement in it: "For this purpose they employ agents in Lerwick who get, as I am informed, little direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men?"-That used to be the case.
12,561. That means, of course, that the agents" chief profit arose from their sales of goods to the men; and that used to be the case formerly?-Yes.
12,562. When did it cease to be the case?-I believe that since the Board of Trade regulations were enforced there has been a change.
12,563. Have you heard of any gentlemen giving up the agency in the Greenland trade in consequence of their failure of profit from that source?-I think Messrs. Hay & Co. have given it up; I have not heard of any others.
12,564. Have you any doubt at all that the princ.i.p.al part of these agents" profits was derived from sales of that kind, at least previous to 1868?-I should think that that is quite correct, if you speak of several years ago.
12,565. The price for the fish caught in the summer fishing is fixed according to the current price for dry fish at the end of the season.
How is that current price ascertained?-We know how much green fish make one cwt. of dry. It varies according to the size of the fish, and their original quality. The average is about 21/4 cwt.
of green fish to one cwt. of dry.
12,566. Is that the average which is taken in calculating the price every year, or is there sometimes a different average taken?-That is taken generally. It varies a little, according to the fish being very thin or fat at the time they are caught; but 21/4 cwt. is a very fair estimate taking one time with another. We know how many tons of wet fish we have at the station, and we know how many tons of dry fish we get from that place. I have seen the proportion as high as 21/2 cwt.
12,567. The produce of dry fish at one station might differ from the same quant.i.ty of wet at another?-Yes, it will never be the same.
12,568. Then, in calculating the amount in order to settle with the men, do you take it overhead at all your stations?-We take our chance of it varying.
12,569. You do not settle with the men at one station according to the actual quant.i.ty of dry fish produced from the green fish delivered there?-No. We have one price for all the season.
12,570. How do you ascertain the current price of dry fish in order to settle with the men? Is it from your own sales, or do you communicate with other merchants?-We are not very extensively engaged in buying the fish green from the men.
12,571. Do you not buy sixty or eighty tons annually?-Yes; but we generally make a calculation for ourselves. We don"t always pay the current price.
12,572. Is it not your bargain to pay the current price?-That is the understanding with the men; but we have sometimes paid the current price, and sometimes we have paid more. We don"t bind ourselves by what others pay.