11,025. When was he asked to come?-I suppose he never was asked particularly; but it is understood that every man has to pay his debt when he is able.
11,026. But you say that he declined?-I believe he declined on the ground that he required the money. I don"t know whether he was asked to come or whether he merely said of his own accord that he would not be able to pay his account just now, as he required the money.
11,027. Was that done in your presence?-No; it was in Mr.
Jamieson"s.
11,028. Did you see the man when he came back to the office?-I don"t remember seeing him. It was Mr. Jamieson who told me of the circ.u.mstance.
11,029. When a man comes down to settle after receiving [Page 270] his money at the Shipping Office does he hand over the whole money into your hands, or does he merely settle the amount of his account?-He sometimes does the one way and sometimes the other.
11,030. Sometimes he may hand over the whole money for you to settle with him?-Yes; and at other times he asks what he is due.
11,031. When he hands over the whole money to you, does it ever happen that the accounts of another shipping agent are settled at the same time in your office-It has not happened since 1867.
11,032. Is there anything in the state of the law to prevent that from being done if the man has got his cash at the Shipping Office?-I don"t think there is.
11,033. Then why has it never been done since 1867?-I don"t know; it has just happened so.
11,034. Was that done regularly previous to 1867?-A few instances might have occurred, but it was not very general practice at all.
11,035. In what way before that time did you know that a man was owing another agent unless you had the sum intimated to you by that agent, or had lists exchanged?-The agent very likely ascertained when the man was to settle and came along.
11,036. He had ascertained where the man was employed?-Yes, in what ship.
11,037. Did he do that by means of information obtained at the Custom House?-Possibly he might.
11,038. Was it not by information obtained from the agent who employed the man?-It was possibly from the Custom House, or from some other party.
11,039. But it might have been from the agent who engaged the man?-It is quite possible.
11,040. Was it not a regular practice to give information of that sort?-No.
11,041. Was such an arrangement made more commonly when the man was pretty deep in debt?-Yes.
11,042. The agent in whose books he had run up a considerable debt would look sharper after him, and would make inquiries at the other agent by whom he was employed?-Yes.
11,043. So that at least to that extent there was regular system of communication between the agents?-It was not done to any great extent; it was merely trifling. There were not so many men in debt as to make it a common practice.
11,044. It might come to something considerable where several hundreds of men were engaged in the whale fishing?-Yes; but when they were divided among four agents there would not be many.
11,045. But last year you engaged 280 men yourselves?-Yes.
11,046. And in some years the number of men employed in the sealing and whaling would be greater?-Yes. I think we employed about 500 in 1853.
11,047. So that among 500 men employed by you it was very probable that a considerable number should be in your debt?-I don"t think there were many of them indebted at all. Last year there were very few indeed.
11,048. But in past years there may have been a very considerable number when you had 500 or 600 men engaged?-When the fishing proved a failure the debts would be very considerable.
11,049. In going through Mr. Hamilton"s Report, you have omitted a sentence in which he says: "It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents, or, in other words, for the agent to undertake to pay to himself part of the seaman"s wages." Is it quite common for the allotment notes to be made out in favour of the agents?-Yes, it was quite common.
11,050. Is it sometimes done still?-We have never done it in Mr.
Leask"s office but I believe it has been done elsewhere.
11,051. Why was it never done in Mr. Leask"s office?-We just trusted to the men"s honesty.
11,052. Have you never taken an allotment note, in which the party to whom it was payable was, not Mr. Leask, but some one in his office?-We never took out allotment notes at all.
11,053. When you engage a man, does he not generally take an allotment note?-Not generally.
11,054. Does he do it at all?-Not at all.
11,055. He gets his supplies from you without any allotment note?-Yes; without us having any guarantee at all. We have advanced both goods and money, to great extent, without any allotment note.
11,056. But in these cases you were aware that he had no allotment note?-We have never issued any allotment notes for the last six years, except, perhaps, in a very rare case. We may have given one or so.
11,057. Of course, you would not have advanced him the money had there been an allotment note left in the hands of his with or other relations, which they were ent.i.tled to draw from you?-We would have advanced money to parties whom we knew.
11,058. Have you frequently given money to a seaman"s family during his absence?-Yes.
11,059. But more frequently supplies?-Not more frequently. It was just as they wished it. If they wished supplies they got them, but we did not wish them to take them.
11,060. What further observation have you to make on Mr.
Hamilton"s Report?-Towards the end he says that the men employed are not free agents. I deny that. I say they are free agents, and that they are at perfect liberty, so far as my experience goes. They can engage with whoever they please, and take their supplies anywhere they please.
11,061. In denying that statement, do you intend your denial to be applicable both to the men who are in your debt and to those who are clear?-Decidedly. The debt const.i.tutes no hold whatever over the men.
11,062. Even where the man has a family, and is resident in Shetland?-Yes, even then.
11,063. And even where he is a tenant of Mr. Leask, if that happens to be the case?-Yes. Even in that case he may go where he pleases. I never yet saw Mr. Leask compel a man in any way. Then Mr. Hamilton says: "While the men employed are not free agents, however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wishes to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the results of their labour." That also I deny. There is an insinuation there that the employers do not do what is right; and I think the word "appropriating" does not look very well; but it is not correct. The Shetland people, in general, are pretty well able to take care of themselves, and they are sharp enough in settling, to look out that they have got fair play.
11,064. And even to take care that the prices charged for goods are not unreasonably high?-Yes; they take very good care of that.
11,065. Have you many disputes as to the prices of goods at settling time?-Very few indeed.
11,066. Does that arise from the fact that your charges are very moderate, or from the fact that the Shetlanders don"t pay much attention to that matter?-They pay great attention to it, and an article is always priced before they buy it. I am quite sure that our prices are not higher than those of others; at least so far as my experience goes.
11,067. There is another statement in Mr. Hamilton"s Report, to which you have not referred,-that there is no time fixed for settlement with the men who go to the seal and whale fishing?- That is quite correct; but it is our interest to get the work of settlement done as speedily as possible.
11,068. In what way is it your interest?-To get the work off our hands. We could settle with a dozen men nearly in the same time that we can with two or three; and if they would all come and get settled with in one or two days, that would be so much less trouble to us.
11,069. Is it the case that the men, after being discharged from the ship and before settlement, continue to run accounts with you to any extent?-Very seldom.
11,070. Does it happen to some extent?-Only to a very small extent. They seldom buy anything after they have landed. Here [showing] is a crew of 27 men [Page 271] landed from the "Esquimaux" on 28th April 1870, and they were all paid off by 14th May, or in about two weeks.
11,071. That was for a sealing voyage. Did these men engage again for the whaling?-I believe some of them did.
11,072. Were others going south?-Some of them went south, I daresay, and a good number of them went to the home fishing.