16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don"t say that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the creditor"s knowledge that they had such fish in their possession, obtain a renewal of their bills.
16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice.
16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?- In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever, because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing.
16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly.
16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that they may purchase goods where they please. I don"t think that any of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some other necessary article for the house.
16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?- In some cases he may not be able to do so.
16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances from their employer although they may have money of their own?-I don"t say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a certain extent.
16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the case.
16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice of h.o.a.rding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the fishermen?-I believe it does.
16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?- I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to have paid off the debt.
16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way, that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for them until the end of the season.
16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner whale fishing at Iceland.
16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?- The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you, refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men"s earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average payment to each was 23, 15s., and in many cases those who had the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction except where they wished, were the men who took up the least advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings of the 81 men and boys in that year were 3022, 18s.; the total amount paid in cash was 1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of 23, 15s.
16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father"s island after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing.
16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them.
16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen there?-The father of the family went to Burra.
16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and several sons?-Yes.
16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?- Yes.
16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke out a living in the best way he could.
16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not sufficient to keep them.
16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere.
16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more economical.
16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as well as others.
16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than under the other system?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.
16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in Lerwick?-I am.
16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for the seal and whale fishing?-Yes.
16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to give in as part of your evidence?-Yes.
[The witness put in the following statement:-]
"I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief management of their ship-agency business, and particularly as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The masters generally selected first those men who had been with him the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of getting their first month"s advance in cash, even before the recent regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases where they did not take all their first month"s advance in cash, it was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially.
Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month"s advance could go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what they could not pay the first. Without such a.s.sistance these young men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the crews myself, but since then I have had to be a.s.sisted by one or more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent.
instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first month"s advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned, that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master, but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters"
accounts there, although not permitted here."
16,532. You say in that statement, "The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that.
16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in most cases.
16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they had been engaged.
16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been engaged?-No.
16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could not know what they did in other shops.
16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things which the men have to provide jointly.
16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the captains?-Yes.
16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No; the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection have made.
16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?- No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me that he wants to go again in that particular ship.
16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The master generally has a list of his last year"s hands, and if he likes them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the other men who come forward.
16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He generally has a list of his former crew there to look at.
16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his former crew?-No.
16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not entered in your books?-No.
16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then he takes his own men.
16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and see if there vacant berth that will suit him.
16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along with the rest.
16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take any man he chooses.
16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless he was a useless man that I knew was of no use.